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Mr. Dalyell: I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman how many Welsh people likely to take an interest in these documents cannot read English as well as he or I?

Mr. Llwyd: With great respect to the Father of the House, that is not the issue. I speak Welsh as my first language. I am a barrister by profession and I can do court cases in either language, but I would prefer to speak my first language when I am able and wish to do so. The House passed the Welsh Language Act 1993, and the spirit of that Act is that every person in Wales who has a public service delivered to him or her should, if he or she opts for it, have it delivered through the medium of the Welsh language. If I may say so to the hon. Gentleman, for whom I have a high regard, the Father of the House makes a rather empty point there.

At the end of the day, these points having been considered by Governments, it is likely that our position will be that we will support holding a referendum and
 
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that we shall be positive and that we shall work hard in that campaign. It is likely to be a similar position to our 1997 devolution referendum position. The plan that is being put before us is not really a stark and awful Kafkaesque version of Europe. It does not, I believe, radically alter the face of the European Union beyond the principle of being a written constitution and it is not as radical as the Maastricht treaty or indeed the 1986 Single European Act.

However, the proposal leaves considerable power in the hands of member states. It is a tidying-up, but there are new provisions. I, for one, do not fear them. I will take part, I hope, in a rational, reasonable discussion during the referendum campaign. I believe that this is a step in the right direction. This is the first time that the Union's powers and structures will be set out in a single document, and I believe that the institutional reform is highly necessary for a growing Union.

4.40 pm

Mr. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): First, may I say how strongly I support the point made about the Welsh language by the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), who speaks for Plaid Cymru? It is very important that minority languages are preserved as creations of humankind—but that is not the main point of my speech.

I congratulate the Government on deciding to hold a referendum. I understand that congratulations are due to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on persuading the Prime Minister about that sensible course of action, and I wish that he was here to hear my congratulations; perhaps another time.

It will be no surprise to some of my hon. Friends and, indeed, other hon. Members that I will not vote in favour of the treaty—I shall come to my reasons later—but the doubts about the treaty are widespread across Europe among those on the left. I say that because the issue is sometimes portrayed as a left-right argument, but I do not think that it is: the left in Europe is profoundly concerned about the treaty and what it entails.

Today, I understand that Laurent Fabius, the former French Prime Minister, is about to express his doubts about the treaty. I do not know whether he will vote for or against it, but his supporters are certainly saying that they should vote no, and others on the left in France feel equally strongly. The French have decided to go for a referendum. Indeed, it is possible that the French may have a close-run referendum, as they did over the Maastricht treaty.

Others have doubts. Doubts may be growing among those on the left in Germany because of high unemployment. There are serious disturbances, particularly in the east, where unemployment is high and there are threats to cut benefits. When German working people start to make the strong connection between the rules of the eurozone and, indeed, the rules imposed by the EU on their economy, they may have some serious doubts about pursuing the constitutional treaty. There is a direct connection.

The poor East Germans, in particular, have suffered a double whammy. First, the one Ostmark for one Deutschmark overvaluation of their currency led effectively to the closing down of all East German
 
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industry. Fortunately, the recycling of billions of Deutschmarks helped them to survive that trauma. Secondly, the Deutschmark was overvalued when it entered the euro, causing the same deflationary problem that the East Germans faced. Although the problem is perhaps not so extreme, it has had a similar effect.

Mr. Hendrick: My hon. Friend refers to the French referendum and expresses views on whether the Germans should have one, but in an interview with the Financial Times, the German Chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, said:

"The German constitution does not allow for a referendum. We will have a parliamentary process".

I sometimes wish that that were the case here. What is my hon. Friend's view on that?

Mr. Hopkins: I understand that, only a week or two ago, the German Chancellor proposed changing the law in Germany to permit referendums, although not specifically in relation to the treaty. Of course, German Governments change. Sadly, there might be a reversion to the right, which I would very much regret, and a change in the German constitution and position.

Chris Bryant: In fact, the Christian Democrats in Germany are arguing very passionately against introducing a referendum provision. That almost certainly makes such a change in the German constitution impossible, because it would need a significant majority in both Houses. Of course, it is interesting to note that that is the sister party of the Conservatives in this country, with which they share operations in the European Parliament.

Mr. Hopkins: My hon. Friend makes the point that the politics of Europe are confused in every country. Indeed, there are divisions in almost every party, and I know that several Social Democrats in Germany have a profoundly anti-eurozone view.

Doubts have also been expressed by euro-enthusiasts. During the negotiations on the treaty, John Monks said that the support of the European Trade Union Confederation could not be guaranteed if Britain successfully reduced the effect of the Human Rights Act 1998 on employment legislation, although I think that that has probably now been overcome. That illustrates the struggle between social democracy and neo-liberalism, which is what underlies the European debate. I am a profound supporter of social democracy and think that post-war social democracy has led to the peace that we have enjoyed for the past 50 years—most of my lifetime. The full employment, the redistribution of income and wealth, the welfare state and the social justice embodied in post-war social democracy, together with Keynesian economics, have led to the peace that we have enjoyed in western Europe, not the European Union. Recently, a report by Ian Milne entitled "A Cost Too Far" suggested that growth in EU countries had been slower than that in comparable countries outside because of the deflationary impact of the eurozone especially and European economic policies in general. There are worries on the left as well as the right.
 
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It was interesting that, when the combined opposition of Spain and Poland brought down the last proposal for a treaty, there was palpable relief in Whitehall because it meant that Britain would not have to face the agonising task of persuading its people to vote for it. Indeed, it was thought that the treaty would not be brought back for many years and that we could forget about it—thank goodness for that—and concentrate on joining the euro, which the Government were perhaps more interested in. The treaty has come back, but as has been reported widely in the newspapers, there is even now a sense that the Government would be grateful if another country voted no before our referendum so that we would not have one. Are Governments more concerned about losing face than the treaty itself? [Interruption.] Well, the Government are committed to holding a referendum, which I support strongly, and I have said before what my position will be. However, if another country votes no before then, I suspect that champagne corks will pop in certain Departments of State in Britain. I shall certainly pop my champagne cork on that day.

There is still a grave doubt surrounding precisely what Europe is about. We hear almost daily of debates about whether we will have a Christian commonwealth of some kind—Giscard d'Estaing's view is that it is really about Christianity. There are severe worries that that might exclude Turkey, but the Americans want Turkey to join because it would tie a Muslim country into the European Union. The membership of such a country, especially one that borders on the oil lands of Iraq and beyond, would be interesting for western strategic reasons.

The right hon. and learned Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) tried to assert that the Conservative party had always supported enlargement, but I heard Sir Edward Heath oppose it in one of his last speeches in the House. He believed in a tightly drawn group of heavily integrated western European nations and thought that enlargement would loosen that arrangement. The European Union was originally a bloc of western European nations of similar economic standing that could work well together. As soon as one goes for enlargement, the bonds start to loosen and the arrangement becomes more sensible, so I strongly support it on those grounds.

Retiring Commissioner Frits Bolkestein referred this week to the possibility that we will have an Islamic European Union. That is nonsense. However, we should not be a Christian European Union, but a Union that embraces all beliefs, whatever they are, with democracy at its core.

I return to my main point that the essence of a modern democracy is control over one's economy. If one does not have that control, one has democratic control of hardly anything. Economic power should therefore be retained by member states. We should co-operate voluntarily with other member states, but economic policy should not be decided at a level above the member states.

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