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Mrs. Angela Browning (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I spoke—
Mrs. Browning:
I know—the Minister will not be disappointed. As he will recall, I spoke in the House on 16 June; indeed, he was very kind about my comments on that occasion. I will not reiterate what I said then, but I should like to pick up on one of my central themes. This constitution is the last piece in the jigsaw in creating what is not necessarily a superstate. Indeed, as a trading bloc the EU is certainly not superstate in nature. As we
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have heard, it has high unemployment, and declining trade and gross domestic product are forecast. In fact, if we were starting from this point the EU would be an economic bloc that we would not want to join.
However, we have to be realistic about what the agenda of other countries has always been. The direction in which they are now going is not in the British interest, which is why I oppose the constitution in principle and in detail. Indeed, I hope to spread the word and to persuade people to look at this issue much more seriously, and then to vote no in a referendum.
Mr. Hendrick: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Mrs. Browning: No. Whatever people's views—whether they share mine or they share in the European dream—let us have some honesty in this debate. Those who make the case for that dream should be prepared to stand their corner and be totally honest about what is involved.
When the Prime Minister returned from the intergovernmental conference on 21 June, he told us what he had signed up to and I asked him an oral question. I asked whether he had changed the way in which voting takes place, and about our use of the veto in co-ordinating economic policy across the EU. He did not answer my question. My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) repeated the question about 10 minutes later.
He did not answer her question either, so I tabled a written question to the Prime Minister asking him whether that policy would be determined in future by qualified majority voting.
I received a reply from No. 10 Downing street on 23 June saying that the Prime Minister had passed my question to the Minister for Europe, who is now in his place on the Treasury Bench. The Minister then replied by referring me to part 3 of the treaty. When I read it, I discovered that change in the voting mechanism on economic policy was not stipulated, that the default applied and that it therefore became subject to qualified majority voting. In other words, we have given up the veto. I then tabled a supplementary question to the Minister asking whether that was right. I received a reply saying that he believed that I had already received a substantial reply—end of story.
I repeat to the Minister today what I said to him then. If the Government believe that this is in the British interest, let us have some honest and straight answers to some straight questions about important issues. Have we given up the right of exercising a veto in respect of our economic policy—yes or no? I asked the Foreign Secretary earlier in the debate whether the charter of fundamental rights was legally binding. In similar fashion, he referred me to a part of the treaty. I want some straight answers from the Minister about whether the Government have made any concessions. We know from the debate that they certainly have: they have given up on many red lines, forfeiting our case on a range of important issues. We have seen EU institutions expand their power in key areas—not just over the economy, but over criminal justice and other matters—and we have seen legal personality given to the constitution itself.
I must tell the Minister that the debate is going nowhere, especially when we have the sort of patsy-like material that I see in the White Paper placed in the Vote
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Office. It beggars belief that we are talking about a constitutional matter, but the Government devote the opening part of the document to telling people what a better deal they get on holiday by being part of the EU and its constitution. [Interruption.] I hear a sedentary comment saying that it is true, but let us be quite clear about this. We are talking about the constitution of this country and about democracy. We are not talking about a few people who think that they get a good deal changing pounds into pesetas when they go into Europe. That sort of trivialisation—
Mrs. Browning: I am certainly not giving way to the hon. Gentleman. Someone should put him back in the teapot over there; he has had more than enough to say today.
I really believe that if we are to have a sincere debate for the British people, it must deal with the core elements of what the constitution is about. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) so clearly explained, it is all about democracy, the representation of the people and their ability to call to account those whom they vote for every four or five years. That is why this is the last piece in the jigsaw and the watershed in our relationship with the EU.
If we as a country are not going to be part of this constitution, we have to look for an alternative constructive relationship with the EU. I believe that it should be quite different from the one that has obtained before. It has to be that way, because this constitution rolls up previous treaties. As a customs union, we have to look outwards as a global trading nation, so we need agreements with the EU and with others. That is what the EU itself has been trying to do. It has a trading relationship with Mexico, for example, so there should be no sense of shock horror about my suggestion to take advantage of the changes.
We are shackled by the EU in respect of economic performance and we are shackled by its democratic deficit. We are also shackled by an EU that is rife with fraud and unable to audit its accounts, yet we are asked to have still more of the same and to concede more of our powers. I say no. Vote no in the referendum.
5.29 pm
Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): As usual when we debate Europe in this Chamber, we hear a rich variety of views. This has been an important debate, with many fine contributions from all sides. It has been a pleasure to take part in it, and to listen to what has been said.
I shall deal with some of those contributions, but I shall begin by referring briefly to the White Paper that we received this morning. I congratulate the Minister for Europe on producing it, although at first glance it seems to lack balance, as we expected. It is silent about the murky genesis of the constitution and the many governmental negotiating failures, but we look forward to examining it in detail and making our response in due course.
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In debates on Europe, it is important to recognise that the Conservative party speaks for the mainstream and the majority in this country. We are against the single currency, as are most British voters. For a long time, we have been in favour of a referendum on the constitution, as have a majority of the British people. We are against the constitution, and so are the vast majority of the British people.
However, if he runs true to form, the Minister for Europe will stand at the Dispatch Box and accuse anyone who opposes the constitution of being anti-European, xenophobic and in favour of withdrawal. I do not need to be clairvoyant to predict that, as I have heard him speak on this subject on a number of occasions, and that is what he does every time.
The Minister's approach conveniently ignores the fact that several of his colleagues are against the constitution, as we have heard today. It also ignores the fact that his Government originally opposed the constitution, and it takes no account of the powerful arguments presented in the debate. For example, my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Mr. Walter) described himself as a passionate pro-European, but he also opposes the constitution. Moreover, the Minister's approach ignores the fact that the majority of the British people are against it too.
If the constitution is so good for our country, and if those who oppose it are so misguided, will the Minister explain what the Prime Minister said only five years ago—namely,
"for the record, we are not proposing a constitution of Europe."?
Will he also explain why, just four years ago, the Prime Minister said that we did not need an EU constitution? I hope that the Minister will explain when the Government changed their mind about that, and why.
In the end, whether we sign up to the constitution is a decision of the utmost significance. It must depend on a dispassionate assessment by each and every one of us of the impact of this document on our laws, sovereignty and way of life.
In the debate, many assessments and arguments were presented, both for and against the constitution. Early on, we were treated to a speech from the Back Benches by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), who made her usual measured contribution and asked some important and specific questions about whether the role of the national Parliaments would really be strengthened by the constitution. She also sought clarity about how that would happen, and called for an informed debate in the run-up to the referendum, and that is surely a crucial matter. I hope that the Minister will be able to answer some of those very important points.
The right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) set out his party's position in his usual measured, Rolls-Royce tones. I do not believe that he is sufficiently mindful of the risks and dangers inherent in the constitution, but I respect his conviction and consistency.
The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) asked some important questions, and I hope that the Minister will answer them.
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My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend, East (Sir Teddy Taylor) pressed the Government about exactly how the provisions for withdrawal would operate. He asked some very legitimate questions that require answers, and I hope that the Minister will respond to some of them tonight.
The hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Hendrick) spoke about the need to reinvigorate public interest in this issue. We have noticed that eyelids droop whenever Europe is mentioned, and that will not do in the run-up to a referendum, but the hon. Gentleman made the mistake of describing the process as a big tidying-up exercise. Of course, some tidying up is involved, but the constitution is much more than that, as it contains many new provisions.
I have already referred to my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset, who presented a passionate explanation of why, as a pro-European, he does not agree with the constitution. He said that the treaty does not simplify matters or make the EU more democratic and effective.
The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) treated us to his usual display of passionate support of, and loyalty to, his Government. We applaud him for that, and hope that it bears reward in the near future—although I am sure that it is reward enough for him still to be here with the Foreign Secretary.
The hon. Gentleman spoke vigorously in favour of the constitution. We have heard him do that before, and I am sure that we will in future.
We were treated to a masterful presentation from my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory), who said that Laeken failed to deliver on its stated aims. He referred particularly to the fact that the European Court of Justice will become the supreme court of this nation and will be the final arbiter of interpretation of the constitution.
The hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Plaskitt) recognised the need for reform of EU institutions, but concluded that the constitution is the right solution. That is misguided.
The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) called for the Welsh language to be remembered in the constitution and made a passionate case for that for Plaid Cymru—[Interruption.] It was better pronounced by him. I apologise to him, as I have in the past; he always forgives me. He asked about the legal status of the charter of fundamental rights. We need to hear a clear answer on that from the Foreign Secretary and the Minister. We want it put on the record, boiler-plated and made clear.
The hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Hopkins) made the point that widespread concerns about the constitution are not just confined to the right of politics in Europe, but are legion throughout the left of political opinion, too. He spelled out some of his concerns about the constitution. It is important that those on the Government Front Bench recognise that many Labour Members have profound concerns.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) spoke with his usual passion and conviction about the undermining of democracy that has already happened and the further undermining of real democracy that would take place if the constitution were agreed.
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The hon. Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith (Mr. Lazarowicz) rather wasted most of his 10 minutes attacking our party and policies, but he just managed to let slip that he wanted to transfer even more powers to Brussels: at least we know where he is coming from.
My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) hammered home the point that we need to claw back and protect national sovereignty and indicated, in his usual, powerful way, the many dangers of the constitution.
Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning) called for honest, straight answers to some of the most important questions. In the run-up to a referendum, it will not do for the Government to hide behind confusion, obfuscation, long words and legal phrases. We must have clear, simple answers to these important questions.
It has been a good debate. In the few moments that remain to me, I should like to summarise why we Conservatives believe that the constitution is wrong for Britain and the EU.
I should like to make three crucial points. First, the Laeken mandate for the Convention in 2001 was to design a blueprint for the EU that would bring the institutions of Europe closer to the people. Many contributors made that point, and we have seen the importance of that in the dismal turnouts across the continent in the European elections earlier this year. Sadly, however, this document does nothing of the kind. In fact, the proposals to give more power to institutions with which people feel no connection whatsoever is taking matters in the opposite direction.
The growing gap between the governed and Governments, whether within nations or transnationally, is one of the most serious issues facing us, and threatens our democracy as we look forward and could have dire, long-term consequences. We have to deal with people's sense of disconnection with European institutions. The constitution—clumsy and misguided as it is—will only make matters worse.
Secondly, the charter of fundamental rights, contrary to everything that the Government have said about it—and they have twisted, spun and turned on this in the past few years—will have full legal status, and the European Court of Justice will sit in judgment on it. More and more experts and commentators agree on that point and recognise that it could have a profound impact on our laws. Most recently, Professor Brian Bercusson of King's College London, to whom my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Devizes referred, said that the constitution could boost employment rights in this country. I have no problem with that. If the Government believe that employees in this country require better protection, with all the impact that that would have on productivity and business, let them bring forward their own domestic legislation through the front door. It is not acceptable to sign up to a document that will bring these measures in through the back door.
Most people in this country—and most of those I speak to in my constituency—believe that there is already too much interference from Brussels. This charter would be a gateway to yet more centralisation and interference from Brussels.
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It is almost certain, given its track record, that the European Court of Justice would push its nose into domestic nooks and crannies where it simply will not be welcome.
The third reason why we oppose the constitution is that we believe, from a close analysis of its contents, that it will transfer more powers away from national Parliaments and hand them to EU institutions. That case is utterly made by a close and careful reading of the document. It would give more power to Brussels over social security; more power to co-ordinate employment policies; more power on competition policy; more power to co-ordinate our economic policy; more power on trade policy; more power over energy policy; more power over immigration and asylum; more power over domestic criminal law. That is what the constitution says and that is what would happen. So rather than reconnecting with the peoples of Europe by bringing home powers to their national institutions with which they feel more in tune and in which they have confidence, the new constitution will take powers from the nation states and hand them to Brussels. It will set in place a new framework for more unwanted and unwarranted interference from the centre. That is bad news.
Our critics are entitled to ask what we as Her Majesty's loyal Opposition would do instead. We certainly would not have agreed to this constitution. We will continue to call for a Europe that better reflects 21st century realities; a Europe based on co-operation, not coercion; a competitive, free-market and flexible Europe that will give individual member states the space to be different and room to breathe; a Europe in which powers are genuinely returned wherever possible to member states; a Europe that is flexible; a live-and-let-live Europe in which those who wish to forge ever closer union can do so and those who do not can remain more independent. That is the kind of Europe that the vast majority of citizens want, and the constitution is a quantum leap in the wrong direction and must be opposed.
After months of denial and insisting that there would be no referendum on the constitution, after months of intense pressure from the Opposition and from the court of public opinion, the Prime Minister finally caved in and agreed that there would be a referendum. Sometimes the Foreign Secretary is credited with putting on that pressure and bringing about that decision. If that is true, we congratulate him. This is an important U-turn and a decision that is fundamentally important to the future of Britain. Giving the people of Britain the final say is something that we welcome.
As several right hon. and hon. Members have said, it is important that an informed and measured debate now takes place not only in the media but in Parliament to enable people to vote in the referendum, whenever it comes, on an informed basis. But why the delay? Having made the decision to have a referendum, let us get on with it. If the people of this country vote no, there will be no crisis. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Devizes said, the answer is contained in page 11 of the White Paper. The heads of state of Europe will have to think again, go back to Laeken and come up with a different way forward that is more acceptable to the peoples of Europe.
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Next time, the policy makers will have no choice but to listen to the voice of the people. The country that votes down this misguided constitution will do the whole EU a long-term favour. So let the Prime Minister bring on the referendum without delay; let the people of Britain have their say; and let the honour of creating a more attractive European Union fall to us.
5.43 pm
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