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Clergy

16. Mr. Ben Chapman (Wirral, South) (Lab): What discussions the Church Commissioners have held recently with the Department of Trade and Industry with regard to the terms of employment of members of the clergy. [187911]

Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Stuart Bell): Church of England representatives have played a full part in meetings with the DTI to discuss aspects of the employment status of clergy.

Mr. Chapman: While the establishment of the clergy working group with the DTI is very much to be welcomed, I have personally campaigned on this issue for seven years now, and that is far too long. I urge my hon. Friend to encourage the working group to reach speedy, equitable, early and fair conclusions.

Sir Stuart Bell: I am sure that when my hon. Friend is dead—but not forgotten—the words "Employment Relations Act 1999, section 23" will be found engraved on his heart. We welcome the way in which he has pushed this issue, as has the Church, for more than seven years. As he knows, the mills of God grind slowly, but they grind exceeding small, and we are looking for legislation on the matter during 2005.

David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): I, too, albeit more intermittently, have raised this issue from time to time since 1997. Does my hon. Friend agree that the present status of parish priests is equivalent to self-employed, and as such they have significantly weaker employment rights than do people who are legally employed? Should not we move much more quickly to protect parish priests and others from the vulnerability to which they are currently exposed?

Sir Stuart Bell: As my hon. Friend will know, the clergy terms of service review group, chaired by Professor David McClean, recommended that clergy should have the employment rights conferred by section 23 of the Employment Relations Act 1999, including protection against unfair dismissal and a new form of tenure for those without freehold. On the issue of employment rights per se, the clergy will retain their offices as officeholders within the terms of the clergy terms of service regulations.

Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): Is not the real problem the erosion of the freehold? Can the hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that it is no part of the policy of the Church Commissioners to erode the freehold further?

Sir Stuart Bell: The hon. Gentleman puts a pertinent question. The second report that is being prepared on the basis of the first report by Professor David McClean will develop some of the issues that are in the first report,
 
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including the possible application of common tenure to clergy with the freehold. It will also address some of the questions that have been raised during the consultation on the first report.

ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE

The hon. Member for Gosport, representing the Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, was asked—

All-postal Ballots

17. Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): If he will make a statement on the future of all-postal ballots following the most recent report of the Electoral Commission. [187914]

Mr. Peter Viggers (Gosport) (Con): The commission has produced reports on each of the four all-postal ballots held in June this year, as required by the European Parliamentary and Local Elections (Pilots) Act 2004, and also a separate report that looks more widely at the future use of postal voting across Great Britain. It is now for the Government to respond, and of course for others to comment—including honourable colleagues.

Michael Fabricant: I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. He will be aware that the Electoral Commission said that the trials were marred by complex voting methods, logistical problems and fear of abuse, damaging public confidence. Although the whole House will welcome greater engagement by the electorate in elections—the number of people voting rose by 5 per cent.—does he not feel that the commission may be unwise to say that it is too late to cancel the all-postal election in the north-east?

Mr. Viggers: The commission has certainly recommended that voters be offered greater choice in how they receive and cast their vote, but it does not believe that there are sufficient grounds to stop the referendum in the north-east at this stage, when the formal referendum period has already begun, Parliament has agreed to the referendum proceeding and preparations are under way. The commission has also pointed to the fact that campaigning has begun and that there is public expectation that the vote will go ahead. For future elections and referendums, however, it has made it clear that it would not support the use of all-postal voting.

Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): In this instance, it is difficult not to say to Ministers, "We told you so." Having read the Electoral Commission's pertinent comments, which deal not only with all-postal voting but with postal voting in normal elections, it seems to me that there are some excellent suggestions for changes in primary legislation to deal with new offences, the dispatch of papers, post-election audits and, most important, the declaration of identity. The Electoral Commission says:

"All legislation pertaining to an election . . . should be in place in time to allow the implementation of proper and robust procurement process."

 
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As we are moving towards a general election period, is the commission in discussion with the Government about introducing primary legislation in the next Session to secure its sensible passage, unlike the rushed and unfortunate process that we went through a few months ago?

Mr. Viggers: Yes, the commission took the view in July 2003, on the basis of three series of pilots at local elections, that all-postal voting could be recommended for use in local elections, subject to certain stated conditions. However, following the extensive pilot in June 2004, which also included European parliamentary elections, it has moved to the view that all-postal voting does not provide the best basis for moving forward. Its intention is to develop proposals for what it calls a foundation model for multi-channel elections, as indicated in its recent report, "Delivering Democracy", and to report on a recommended approach before 31 March 2005. The model is expected to build on the benefits of all-postal voting while retaining the use of polling stations. The commission will consult interested individuals, including Members of Parliament and political parties, as the development work gets under way later this year, but it takes the view that it is necessary to do that careful preliminary work before legislation is introduced.

CHURCH COMMISSIONERS

The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked—

Parish Priests

18. Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): Pursuant to his oral answer of 28 June, Official Report, columns 18-19, on parish priests, how vocations day contributes to the recruitment of rural parish priests. [187915]

Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Stuart Bell): As an aside, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, as the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) is still in the Chamber, may I say how much we shall miss him in our part of Question Time? John Keats wrote the line,

"Just for a handful of silver he left us"—

Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): It was Browning.

Sir Stuart Bell: I am very grateful for that correction. Hansard will also be grateful. We miss the hon. Member for Lichfield in relation to Lichfield cathedral and other Church matters, and hope that he will soon be back among us.

On the question put by the hon. Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh), vocations Sunday gives the Church the opportunity to encourage everyone to reflect and discover their God-given call, and resources are provided for dioceses to help in that process.
 
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Miss McIntosh: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that reply. I know that he shares my concern about the number of rural priests who are approaching retirement. Has he given any more thought to that problem? Mindful of the fact that we have had a particularly harsh summer, with bad weather affecting rural farmers, which has put more pressure on parish priests, how can vocations Sunday help and what specific emphasis are the priests giving?

May I also ask the hon. Gentleman to join me in congratulating the Archbishop of York in giving such a magnificent lead, in proposing to return to what should be the ultimate ministry—rural parish priesthood?

Sir Stuart Bell: The Archbishop of York has rendered a signal service to the Church over many years. He will be sadly missed in his role as archbishop, but I am sure that his continued search for the salvation of souls through the parish church is most welcome.

On the hon. Lady's point about the number of parish priests in rural areas, she will be aware that the majority of clergy now entering the stipendiary ministry have had previous careers. They are therefore likely to have family commitments and limits on their mobility. In addition, they may wish to minister in a setting that is similar to that from which they have come. That is, of course, a broad generalisation, but it helps to explain why rural dioceses sometimes find it more difficult than others to attract stipendiary clergy.

On the hon. Lady's first question, the recent feedback suggests that, following the initiatives that I have announced, a number of men and women have been encouraged to explore a call to ordination in rural parishes and elsewhere with their local clergy, vocation advisers and diocesan directors of ordinance.

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