---

Jonathan Shaw (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab): I agree with my right hon. Friend about the importance of partnership and co-operation, but some concern has been expressed that the Youth Justice Board is not included on the list of organisations that should promote welfare. We know about the tragic circumstances of the deaths in prison of Adam Rickwood and Joseph Scholes, and it is the Youth Justice Board that decides where to place youngsters. Why is it not included?

Margaret Hodge: The Youth Justice Board, as with other organisations such as schools—someone is likely to raise the issue of general practitioners later in the debate—will have to work in partnership with other professions and agencies to secure the outcomes for children that we want. Simply placing a legal obligation on such bodies is not always the best means of achieving that objective. That is why I am talking now about the other levers. The outcomes that we want, the targets that we set, the training that we do and the leadership skills that we try to engender are crucial to ensuring joint working. I reassure my hon. Friend that I have regular and frequent meetings not just with the appropriate Minister of State and Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, but with the Youth Justice Board itself to ensure integration. It is working with us very closely at the local level in the development of children's trusts and other partnership arrangements.

As well as joining up people, we want to join up processes around the needs of the child by developing a common assessment and a common inspection framework and by developing new ways to enable professionals to share information.
 
13 Sept 2004 : Column 1003
 

We want to join up the systems around the needs of the child, by integrated commissioning, supported by pooled resources in children's trusts. We want to join up strategies around the needs of the child by developing partnerships and accountability that reflect all that has gone before. We shall get that all right only if we make sure that children and young people's voices lie at the heart of our endeavour.

Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): The Minister will know that the Opposition share many of the Bill's objectives, but she will be aware that Government Departments have not always been able to get the best out of computer technology. She describes a multi-agency approach, but will she clarify whether every single child in the country will be included in the register, or will it be only children who are deemed to be at risk in some way?

Margaret Hodge: The hon. Lady is right to remind the House of the poor record of Government over many decades of launching and managing complex information systems. That is why the first rule in developing this system has been to keep it simple. We are also undertaking a long period of testing the feasibility of our propositions before taking the final decision on how to proceed.

The system will include every child, for three reasons. First, we want every child to be able to access all the universal services to which they are entitled. Secondly, we want to shift the emphasis to prevention and early intervention. It is too late to put children on the list after their needs have been identified. That would run counter to the whole emphasis on the drive towards early intervention, which can only be achieved if we know about every child. Thirdly, the children who have additional needs do not necessarily need child protection measures or safeguards. Some 3 million out of the 11 million children in this country are in that position, and if we really want to identify them it makes sense to have a fuller register. I will deal with some of the concerns that have been expressed on that point, in the other place and elsewhere, later in my speech.

Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): The Minister has just said that she wants to keep matters simple with regard to IT, and I wholly concur with that. Therefore, instead of trying to place all 11 million children in England on a single database, which the Information Commissioner has said would lead us towards a surveillance society, would it not be much more sensible to concentrate on the most vulnerable children—about whom we are all most concerned—and do a proper job for them?

Margaret Hodge: I have two points to make to the hon. Gentleman. First, the shift towards prevention means that we would need to define who would be placed on that database, and that would assume that we had already identified the additional needs of the children involved. We would be able to effect that sensibly only if we had knowledge of how every child responded to the universal services that are on offer. The assumption behind a more limited list is that someone somewhere else has made a decision about the additional needs of the child without the conversations
 
13 Sept 2004 : Column 1004
 
that that we want to take place between professionals. We hope that the new system will enable such conversations to take place.

Secondly, there is no way in which the Bill will increase surveillance, as the Information Commissioner suggests. We stand by the data protection regulations. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree that we have to strike a balance between privacy for individuals and their families and safeguarding and protecting children. In the light of the many reports we have had on child deaths, it is critical that we grasp this opportunity to put right the failure of professionals to communicate with each other at an early enough stage about the needs of the child—a problem identified in all the reports—which then leads to things going wrong in the life of that child.

Hywel Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): The Minister talked of "this country" earlier. Does she mean England, England and Wales or England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland? Given the nature of the Bill, it would clarify matters if she could explain what she means by those words.

Margaret Hodge: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman welcomes, as I do, the fact that many clauses specifically relate to children in Wales and, indeed, involve the devolution of further powers on children's issues to the Welsh Assembly. When I talk about children, I speak about children in the round, but specifically about children in England where matters have been devolved to the Welsh Assembly. Where there are non-devolved issues, clearly I have responsibility for children whether they live in Wales or in any of the other countries of the UK.

On our consultation with children and young people, I am delighted that we have set up the children and youth board to work with us. It will help us to find out the views of children and young people and reflect them in our work. Beyond that, however, we are creating an independent national voice in England: the children's commissioner, who will be a strong, independent champion for children. The children and youth board will play a key role in the appointment of the commissioner.

I know that the principle of establishing such a commissioner has been widely welcomed but that some concerns remain about the detailed powers and functions. I shall deal with those. First, the Government are proud to have adopted the United Nations convention on the rights of the child. We have reflected its importance by accepting an amendment that the commissioner "must have regard" to the UNCRC.

We have also strengthened the independence of the commissioner by promoting changes that will enable the commissioner to initiate inquiries into issues raised by individual cases where they are of wider significance and where existing mechanisms are inadequate or inappropriate. However, I firmly believe that an entirely rights-based commissioner will not best serve the interests of children in England. We do not want the commissioner to get bogged down with individual complaints; we want the commissioner to have time to get involved, from the perspective of children, in the many issues that affect their lives—from the way in which the media portray young people to the way in
 
13 Sept 2004 : Column 1005
 
which the Government promote healthy eating, and from how we tackle bullying to how we decide the rules on contact and access for separated parents.

We must not set the commissioner up to fail. With the changes that we were planning in the other place, I believe we got the balance right, so we look to the House to restore that balance.

Mr. Phil Willis (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD): I apologise for arriving late—the Great North Eastern Railway was running late today.

We genuinely welcome the Minister's proposals, but is not there a contradiction in having an independent commissioner, with the Secretary of State retaining some powers, but ordering the commissioner to hold inquiries as to the Government's wishes?

Margaret Hodge: I do not believe that contradiction exists. Over time, there will inevitably be some individual cases of such importance and wide significance—although we hope not—that they warrant detailed inquiry and investigation. In those circumstances, I have no doubt that both the commissioner and the Government will agree that the individual case warrants such an inquiry. However, it is obvious to me that the person or office to undertake such an inquiry must be the children's commissioner, as children's interests will be at the heart of his or her responsibility, so we have taken that power in the Bill. After discourse between the commissioner and the Government, should the commissioner not want to pursue a particular inquiry, due to particular circumstances, I do not believe that the Government will be unreasonable in listening to the argument.

---