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Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman will be familiar with the concerns of the Children's Commissioner for Wales that his role is different from that proposed for the commissioner in England, whatever that commissioner will be called. How would the hon. Gentleman address the point about the credibility of the Welsh commissioner being undermined by a perceived lack of independence from the English children's commissioner?
Mr. Griffiths: We do not need to worry about the standing and the independence of the Children's Commissioner for Wales on devolved issues. I want to ensure that, when the process is complete, the commissioner in England, who will have responsibility for some non-devolved issues in Wales, has a similar role to that of the commissioner in Wales on devolved issues. For example, Government Departments in England should have the duty to respond within three months to commissioner recommendations, as happens in Wales. We will need to address such points in Committee and on Report. I hope that we will not see any diminution of the powers of the commissioner, as already expressed in the Bill. Indeed, perhaps the work of the commissioner in England and in other parts of the United Kingdom could be improved and strengthened.
Mrs. Betty Williams (Conwy) (Lab):
If that does not happen, does my hon. Friend agree that—as the Welsh Affairs Committee said in its report—linguistic issues or other non-devolved issues might not be resolved in
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respect of a child from Wales who is in an institution in England? If that happens, the only person to suffer will be the child.
Mr. Griffiths: Yes, and we must ensure that such issues are fully resolved in the Bill and that any commitments made by the Minister to issue guidance are met.
The protections given in clause 8 should include refugee and asylum-seeker children. We should not stand by the reservation that we have to the convention on the rights of the child, because those children are already disadvantaged enough. We should ensure that they do not suffer further disadvantage while they—either on their own or with their parents—seek refuge in the United Kingdom.
I may annoy the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) by discussing whether the smacking issue will hijack the Bill, but it has been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Hinchliffe). I do not think that it will, and the issue should not be discussed in those terms. I believe that the issue of whether children should have equal protection to that which adults enjoy is fundamental to the issues that the Bill is designed to tackle. The whole problem of child abuse can be traced back to the way in which we have deeply embedded in our culture the right for parents and carers to smack their children.
Mr. Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman says that that is rubbish, but the whole situation is Dickensian. The basis of the law on which we are acting goes back to 1860, a time when it was considered normal to beat children until they bled. We have come a long way since then, but the right to smack is still deeply embedded in our psyche.
I take that issue very seriously. The clause 49 compromise in the other place is inadequate.
Mr. Turner: On consideration, does the hon. Gentleman not think that his description diminishes the suffering of some of the children whom the Bill is designed to protect? The suggestion that, for example, Victoria Climbié's suffering was something to do with legislation on smacking children is completely absurd.
Mr. Griffiths: It is not completely absurd. Because of the defence of reasonable chastisement, smacking has been too easy. There was even a court case in which beating a child with the bough of a tree was considered reasonable chastisement in the circumstances. The important thing is that we give children equal protection with adults and that we outlaw smacking. That will begin to attack the idea that parents can smack children in such ways. Only a minority may do so, but none the less 80 or more children are killed every year in circumstances that relate to our allowing ourselves to think that it is okay for parents and carers to smack children.
We do not think that it is okay for parents and carers to smack adults in comparable circumstances; that would be brawling, affray or grievous bodily harm.
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When adults knock each other about, there is a gamut of offences to deal with it, yet under our current law children can be hit.
Mr. Dawson: Does my hon. Friend recall the chilling words of Carl Manning, the murderer of Victoria Climbié? He was reported as saying that she could take a beating like anything.
Mr. Griffiths: We need to keep reminding ourselves of such awful things, because children are legally being hit. A recent Government-sponsored survey showed that more than 90 per cent. of children were being hit regularly—nearly half were being hit weekly and 35 per cent. were being punished in a manner that their parents or carers thought severe. It is incredible to think that 75 per cent. of the mothers interviewed for that survey had smacked their baby in the first year of its life. Those are terrible things and we need to act positively to get rid of them.
Jonathan Shaw: Does my hon. Friend agree that quoting Manning's words—as our hon. Friend the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson) did just now—in the horrendous case of the abuse of Victoria Climbié and making a comparison between that and a gentle tap on the back of the legs of a two-year-old just will not chime with the general public?
Mr. Griffiths: I shall come to that point shortly. I agree that there is a huge difference, but perhaps we are afraid to face up to the facts, and we need to do so. I have already mentioned that our law is based on an archaic judgment made in 1860. We must also remember that there are specific human rights obligations to which we must adhere; for example, we have signed up to the UN convention on the rights of the child. On several occasions, the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child has put it to our Government that we need to amend our law, as we are not treating children properly. Not only international bodies, but almost everybody involved in child protection and the care and promotion of children's rights, whether professionals, voluntary bodies or others with an interest in children—more than 350 organisations—backs equal protection for children. We need a legal framework to change our culture of hitting children.
My right hon. Friend the Minister referred to the fact that such changes had taken place in Sweden over a long period. When the Swedes made it illegal to hit children the majority of people surveyed at the time were against the law, yet now only 6 per cent. of parents still want the right to smack their children. That shows how important it is to get the legal framework right. We need that cultural change.
We must also give much greater priority to provisions for positive parenting. Many parents have already come to the conclusion that it is wrong to smack their children and have found other ways of disciplining them. By getting rid of the defence of reasonable chastisement, we would be taking a major step forward in the push for positive parenting.
We know that such reforms work. A dozen states already have commissioners and there has been a huge improvement in the situation in Sweden, where the legal
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framework has existed for the longest time. We should draw something positive from that and take steps today. Sensationalising in papers such as The Sun should not fool us. Recent opinion polls suggest that people will support equal protection for children—more than 70 per cent. in a MORI poll. It was interesting that 76 per cent. of under-24-year-olds wanted equal protection; for women, the figure was 73 per cent., while for parents it was 74 per cent. The Government have a sound basis for making such provisions. A Populus poll showed that a majority of young people wanted equal protection for children.
We should support an amendment to give equal protection because it is right. I was a bit chilled to be told that we would not be allowed a free vote on that issue. As a parent, I made the decision many years ago not to chastise our children physically and managed to keep to it. Both my children are well into their 30s and neither can recollect ever being hit—although they can remember times when I exploded. However, we managed and we can all manage. As a child, I received some hefty beatings and some people may see that as a good reason to abolish physical punishment. Although I do not feel permanently scarred by that process I still believe that giving equal protection is far better.
Finally, I turn to some issues to which the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham alluded—personnel and finance. If the Bill is to work properly, substantial extra finance will be needed and much will have to be done to encourage people to move into work relating to children. Such workers have taken so many knocks recently that it will not be an easy job.
I wish the Bill well. I shall not be able to support every aspect of it. From the sound of things, I shall not be able to support some of the amendments that the Government will table, but I am fairly sure that whatever the state of the measure at the end of the process it will be far better than what we have at present. I shall be happy to support it in that context, although I hope that what I have spoken about today will come to pass so that I can be deliriously happy when the Bill receives Royal Assent.
6.19 pm
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