---

Mr. David Chidgey (Eastleigh) (LD): A moment ago—

Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Con): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The situation in Parliament square is getting out of control, people are being injured and things are very ugly indeed. The riot police are in action, police on horses are engaged, 2 ft police batons are drawn and are being brought down on people's heads and backs, and I have seen injured people. Can you approach the powers that be to see whether the House, even at this stage, can find a way to delay this debate to a better time—[Interruption.]

Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order.

Bob Spink: Can this debate be delayed to a better time, so that our procedures can be better served and we can improve public safety and deliver democracy?

Mr. Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Would it not be outrageous if we allowed the democratic process to be disrupted by a handful of people who are unrepresentative of the people of this country?

Madam Deputy Speaker: As far as the disturbances taking place outside this House are concerned, I have no doubt that Mr. Speaker will in due course receive a report from the authorities on what exactly is happening. On the second point, I am bound by the Order of the House and this debate will proceed. We have limited time, so I hope that it will be spent discussing the Bill and its Second Reading.

Alun Michael: I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I ask Opposition Members to think very carefully indeed about the words that they use in this Chamber. I have for a long time counselled the leaders of the Countryside Alliance to persuade its members to appreciate that it is for Parliament to take a decision on a matter such as this, and that the law should be obeyed. Parliament should be obeyed, and I urge all Opposition Members—some have made this point and agree with me—to make it clear that they in no way encourage or condone violence or illegal behaviour, however strong the feelings might be of people on either side of this debate.

Mr. Gray: I agree completely with the Minister and condemn without any hesitation any disgraceful actions that might be taken by anyone in Parliament square or
 
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1330
 
anywhere else. Of course we must obey the law, and my party and I would be the first to condemn any such activities.

Alun Michael: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making his position so plain, especially as I know that when feelings run high—he himself has strong views—people can be tempted into other directions. He made an important point.

Before the point of order, I was in the process of   giving way to the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mr. Chidgey).

Mr. Chidgey: The Minister made the point that an inordinate amount of time had been spent debating this issue over the past few years. Perhaps he could help me, and many of my constituents who have raised this question. What important legislation, vital to this country's interests, has been delayed or abandoned because of the amount of time we have spent—in this Parliament alone—debating this issue?

Alun Michael: We as a Government have been pulled both ways on this, because we think that the issue must be dealt with but we do not want other important measures to be delayed or interrupted. That is why we have taken this approach. Once the House of Commons had made up its mind, we sought to use the minimum of time today, to speed the legislation to the House of Lords and ask that House to take it seriously and amend it if their lordships wish. We need to get on with it—

Linda Perham (Ilford, North) (Lab) rose—

Alun Michael: —just as I need to get on with my speech to allow others to speak. However, I shall give way briefly to my hon. Friend.

Linda Perham: On the importance of this issue and how long it is taking, there are lots of people out there, in cities as well as rural communities, who are deeply concerned. I had 300 letters in 1997 about this issue, and constituents across the political spectrum clearly care about animal cruelty, which is what we are talking about here today.

Alun Michael: My hon. Friend is quite right. I, too, have had a great deal of correspondence, on both sides of the debate. I have had many long letters that started by saying that we should not be spending time on this issue and then expressed the writer's views at great length. There is no inconsistency in that. The fact is that this is a minor matter compared with most of the issues that we deal with for our constituents, but it is a divisive issue on which people feel strongly, so it needs to be resolved, and that is why we gave an undertaking in our election manifesto to enable Parliament to reach a conclusion.

Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD) rose—

Alun Michael: I shall give way to the right hon. Gentleman before trying to gallop through the rest of my speech to allow others to contribute.

Mr. Beith: The Minister says that it is a minor matter, but he must bear it in mind that it is not minor to those
 
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1331
 
whose livelihoods are affected and those who feel that their liberties are affected. It should not take up as much time as it has, but in their lives it is extremely important.

Alun Michael: Yes, indeed, as it is for many people who are affronted by the cruelty involved. Both sides feel passionately, as I just said, and feelings run high. Those who say that we should not spend time on this then go on to fill the Chamber and debate it at great length on both sides.

Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD) rose—

Alun Michael: I will give way one last time, and then I must gallop on.

Lembit Öpik: I am sure that it was a slip of the tongue, but the Minister referred to the "cruelty" involved in hunting with dogs. That is at the core of the debate. To date, I have understood that he has accepted that there is room for discussion about that. Presumably, he will now assure us that simply because his Bill has been usurped his views have not. I hope that he will confirm that he still feels that there was a case for having the two reasonableness tests.

Alun Michael: The hon. Gentleman should remember what I said in many of the debates that we have had together: I was convinced by all that I saw that most hunting, if not all, has little utility and involves more suffering than the alternative methods of dealing with the problem. There are exceptions, and I give the example of ratting, which we debated at great length in Committee. I proposed a system that would have allowed a tribunal to make a judgment on those cases in which people felt a case could be made. The House felt that that was not necessary because the matter was open and shut. I have to say that I think the number of cases that could have been made successfully was likely to have been extremely small, so the difference of opinion is a small one. That is the position that I have consistently set out since the Portcullis House hearings at which evidence was given.

In seeking a resolution of this matter, the Government have been very patient. The Burns inquiry looked objectively at the issues and I followed it up in this Parliament by bringing all parties together to look again at the scope for agreement. I launched a wide-ranging consultation process, which culminated in the public hearings held at Portcullis House in September 2002.

A lot of nonsense has been talked about the differences between the Bill that I introduced in December 2002 and the amended Bill passed by the House in July 2003. I have been able to deal with one of the alleged differences by responding to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik). This Bill, like the one I originally introduced, will make hunting a wild mammal with dogs an offence, subject to exceptions; and it will include exceptions for stalking and flushing out, ratting, rabbiting and a number of other items in schedule 1 to the current Bill. It will make it an offence knowingly to permit land or dogs to be used for hunting; it will make hare coursing events illegal and make the same provisions for penalties, search and seizure, forfeiture and application to the Crown.
 
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1332
 

The only difference is that my original Bill provided an additional provision that would have permitted hunting in strictly limited circumstances where the purpose was to meet a specific and real pest control need and where achieving that purpose would cause less suffering than other methods of pest control. A registration and tribunal system would have tested applications case by case.

In response, the House made its wishes very clear. New clause 11, moved by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Mr. Banks) last June, was approved by 362 votes to 154—that is, 70 per cent. of those voting wanted a complete ban on fox hunting. Put another way, 55 per cent. of all Members of the House, taking account of all who abstained or were absent, voted for the Bill as it stands today.

I have compared that with the voting figures on the resolutions on 18 March 2002. On that occasion, with an even higher turnout, 58 per cent of Members of this House voted for a ban. The House has voted for a hunting ban with similar majorities on at least five occasions since 1997, all of which have been free votes. The House's views have been absolutely consistent.

Let me turn to the history of last year's Bill in the House of Lords. The House of Lords is a revising Chamber. Peers have a legitimate role in asking this House to think again about proposed legislation, even where this House has voted by such a large majority. Knowing the strongly held views in this House, their lordships had an opportunity to come up with proposals that might have encouraged second thoughts— to look for a way towards a less polarised situation. I have already pointed out the record of failure to produce proper amendments in the other place.

It has been suggested that the Government did not allow the Lords sufficient time in which to debate the Bill, so let us look at the facts again. The Government made two full days available, which was generous for a controversial Bill of this size—with some 17 clauses. The Government offered more time if the Bill could be taken in Grand Committee. Ludicrously slow progress was made on amendments in Committee and the Lords voted to adjourn the debate when they knew that more time was available.

In summary, both Houses have made their views known on this Bill perfectly clearly during debates in the last Session. This House plainly wants this Bill; the other place plainly does not. I still hope that peers will engage with the Hunting Bill. They will have adequate time to do so. If they fail to do so, the only way in which the matter can properly be resolved is for the will of this House to prevail under the provisions of the Parliament Acts.

---