| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Gray: The hon. Gentleman refers to two episodes in which, tragically, people have been seriously injured or killed during lamping. Lamping occurs at night and it is therefore impossible to tell what eyes one is seeing and tragic accidents can happen. I stress that those two accidents were the exception, not the rule. A great deal of lamping goes on and accidents rarely occur. However, he makes the good point that, if lamping and shooting became the norm in the countryside, accidents are much more likely to occur. We must be aware of that risk.
The Minister has acknowledged in the Bill the efficacy of using dogs for killing certain types of mammals. The Bill exempts the use of dogs for killing rats and rabbits and the Minister has said that the use of dogs in those circumstances is particularly useful. Will he answer one question on this point? If dogs are allowed to kill rabbits but, under the Bill, are not allowed to kill hares, by what means are they going to decide which is which? Are they going to have to stop for a moment and say to themselves, "Hang on! Is that a rabbit? Is it a hare? Let's not get the wrong one." In any event, by admitting that dogs are most efficacious for killing rats and rabbits, the Minister has acknowledged that, in some circumstances,
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1343
the use of dogs might be the best way of dealing with vermin. Our contention is that they are the best means of dealing with foxes.
Mr. Bellingham: Will my hon. Friend consider this scenario? If the local pack of hounds in my constituency, the West Norfolk foxhounds, decided to rebrand itself as the West Norfolk rabbit hounds, it would be able to carry on hunting in a pack and killing rabbits. Is it any less cruel to kill a rabbit than to kill a hare or a fox? Can my hon. Friend explain this ridiculous contradiction?
Mr. Gray: My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. We have not had the opportunity to discuss in Committee the question of intention in regard to hunting. We do not know who will be found guilty of hunting. If my hon. Friend's pack goes out after rabbits and accidentally kills a hare, by what mechanism will a judge decide whether that pack is guilty? These issues should have been decided in this place. We should not be leaving it to the courts and the judges to make up their minds on them.
Some people oppose all forms of killing, and I rather respect that. The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals probably represents a good body of them, and I think that I am right in saying that the hon. Member for West Ham is a vegetarian who does not approve of leather shoes and does not like the killing of animals in any circumstances. He is very strongly opposed to shooting, and I suspect that he is opposed to fishing—
Mr. Tony Banks (West Ham) (Lab): No.
Mr. Gray: Perhaps not fishing. If he is not against fishing, he is different from his friends in the RSPCA, who have acknowledged that, in addition to hunting, they now intend to deal with shooting and fishing as well. Its chief executive, Jackie Ballard, memorably stated recently:
"Game shooting is horrid and nasty . . . the RSPCA will get around to try to end this."
I recently sent out a consultation paper on field sports to the RSPCA, among others, and its response stated:
"The RSPCA policy states that it is opposed to shooting for sport. Consequently, as an animal welfare organisation whose charitable objects include 'promoting kindness', that ethical viewpoint should be considered."
"The RSPCA believes that current practices in angling involve the infliction of pain"—
David Taylor: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Could you advise us whether the hon. Gentleman's speech has deviated from the topic under discussion? He is going on about shooting and fishing, which are not covered by the Bill.
Madam Deputy Speaker: We must now make progress. We have a limited amount of time left and I advise all hon. Members to concentrate on the subject under discussion.
Mr. Gray:
The point that I was making—clearly, I hope—was that the issue before us is not how animals
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1344
are killed or how many are killed; it is about freedom and liberty. The truth is that, if the RSPCA can do this to us hunters, it can also do it to the shooters and fishers. It has made it absolutely plain that it is going to do so. It is dealing with hunting now; who comes next?
All that we country people want is to live and let live. The preservation of tolerance and freedom should be one of the most fundamental duties of this Parliament, and that is all we ask. The Prime Minister recently said that justice, freedom and tolerance—[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but the House really should listen to this debate in silence. A great many members of the public are expecting us to deal with this matter with dignity, however great the passions involved, and we should do that.
Mr. Gray: I fear that some hon. Members do not like what they are hearing.
All that the people of the countryside are seeking is to live and let live. All that we want is tolerance and freedom. We want to make up our own minds as to whether the use of dogs in the countryside is reasonable. We are grown-ups; we can decide these things for ourselves, according to our own conscience. We do not need the Labour party to lay down the law on the use of dogs, or on shooting, fishing, smoking in public places and a whole variety of other things. We want the ability to make up our own mind on these matters, using our conscience and our knowledge of the countryside.
Mr. Stephen O'Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Gray: I am seeking to wind up, if I may. I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the Opposition made it clear last week that we shall seek to repeal this legislation when we come to power, albeit with a free vote for both Front Benchers and Back Benchers. That will give lovers of freedom and tolerance and lovers of the countryside, of whatever political persuasion, a very clear message: if they want to save hunting, they can do that by using every ounce of muscle, straining every sinew and spending every pound that may be necessary to hound this illiberal and hated Labour Government from office.
The Minister is seeking to rush through this House a Bill that he has attacked in the most scathing terms, a Bill created by rebellious Back Benchers, which is neither a manifesto commitment nor mentioned in the Queen's Speech, nor compliant with the Human Rights Act. It is a Bill for which there is little real demand in the country, and its claimed animal welfare benefits are illusory to say the least. It is a legal mess, and will need huge amendment, which I hope that the other place will give it.
The threatened use of the Parliament Act under those conditions is a constitutional scandal of the worst kind, which brings Parliament into disrepute and makes the Minister and his party look both desperate and a laughing stock in the eyes of the public. This is an intolerant, ignorant and prejudiced Bill. It is an affront
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1345
to liberal democracy. It will stir the heart of every citizen who values liberty. The people of this country, and of the countryside, will neither tolerate nor forget it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I must remind hon. Members of what is painfully obvious: little time is left. An eight-minute limit will apply to Back-Bench speeches from now on.
5.6 pm
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I was interested to hear the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) telling the Minister that it was his Bill. That is the most significant aspect of the legislation that we are debating this evening: 34 years after I came into the House, with a succession of private Members' Bills seeking to ban hunting with dogs, we have for the first time—this is an historic moment—a Government Bill to ban hunting with dogs.
The hon. Member for North Wiltshire completely misunderstands the Parliament Act. To us, it is a very important sign of advance that this is a Government Bill, but the Parliament Act has nothing to do with whether a Bill is sponsored by the Government. Put simply, it is a measure that says that, in the end, the will of the House of Commons must prevail. Were it still a private Member's Bill, as introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Foster), the Parliament Act would have the right to prevail.
I offer the House two explanations, one of which relates to amendment (b), which I have tabled to the Government's suggested amendments. If the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Mr. Banks) is carried, my amendment would fall anyway. In any case, I would not move it, as I believe that what is important about today is that the majority of the House of Commons comes together in favour of an outright ban on hunting with dogs.
The other personal explanation is that at sundown tonight—7.3 pm—the Jewish new year begins, so I shall take part in proceedings up to the time when I must get to the synagogue, but I must leave in time to do that. I hope that the House of Commons will accept that. That means, of course, that I shall be able to vote for the Second Reading of the Bill.
We have had all sorts of arguments over these 34 years and longer—my hon. Friend the Member for Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) was a pioneer with the attempt to ban hare coursing, and this must be a great day for him. What is clear, and what belies the hon. Member for North Wiltshire's argument, is that during all the 34 years in which I have attempted to bring about this ban, there has never been a campaign to ban shooting or fishing. Therefore, the idea that this is the thin end of some wedge is not accurate, and it is wrong, false and misleading to propagate it.
| Next Section | Index | Home Page |