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Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Sir Gerald Kaufman:
Time is limited and I would prefer to proceed.
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This campaign is comparable to a campaign that took up the first 35 years of the 19th century: the campaign to ban bull baiting. It took this House 35 years to achieve that, and it will have taken 34 years of my parliamentary experience to achieve this. For that, I am willing to accept a slight delay, much though I would have preferred it not to happen.
Throughout the progress of this legislation, we have heard all kinds of bogus arguments about its effects. While I respect Opposition Members who support the Bill, predominantly the Labour party wants it and a number of Conservatives do not. I find it extraordinary that a party that threw a quarter of a million miners out of work—with no Countryside Alliance to march in support of them, and with none of the compensation for which Members ask now—can say that some kind of vengeful act is involved in legislation that will deprive just a few hundred people of direct employment at a time when the country has the highest employment and the lowest unemployment for 30 years. That is absurd, as is the argument about the dogs.
Everyone who knows about hunting knows that any dog in a hunting pack has a limited life. As soon as that dog no longer serves its purpose as part of a hunting pack, it is shot dead by these animal-loving huntsmen and huntswomen. The idea that somehow the Bill will produce a kind of canine carnage is ridiculous. It is the huntspeople who breed these dogs for one purpose and one purpose only, and who, when that purpose has been fulfilled, dispose of them in an utterly callous way—so let us not hear the animal welfare argument.
What we are approaching today is the fulfilment of two Labour party manifesto pledges, which will have been fulfilled only after two Parliaments and—if this amendment is accepted—another half-Parliament. No one can say that Parliament has been rushed into this. No one can say that this ban will have been implemented without the fullest, most elongated debate that I can remember taking place on any issue during the 34 years for which I have served the House.
For me, this is a great day. This is a vote against cruelty, callousness and the hunting and, literally, hounding of animals for sport and pleasure. That is wrong, and at last we are going to stop it.
5.13 pm
Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): I am aware of the time and will do my best to keep my remarks short.
I am sorry that we have to be back here again to rehearse arguments that we have already had. In this debate, however, we need to consider whether any additional, indisputable wisdom has emanated from another place—whether we have been advised that we may have missed something in a previous debate that might be helpful to us.
Reading the report of the debate in the other place, I see a great deal of opinion dressed up as fact. There is, for instance, the justification for hunting. Lord Renton said:
"Sometimes I have seen foxes in the prime of life being chased with what looked to me like a grin on their face."
I thought it was just the anti-hunters who were supposed to be anthropomorphic. Lord Renton went on:
"I do not think that they minded being chased."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 28 October 2003; Vol. 654, c. 149.]
There is one justification from their lordships.
Here is another justification, from Baroness Strange:
"I went coursing often as a child. Unlike my noble Friend Lord Faulkner, I have never been unlucky enough to see a hare killed. However, I admired how the hares ran and very much admired the dogs."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 28 October 2003; Vol. 654, c. 203.]
I can imagine how admirable that is. Look at that hare running. How admirable—it is running for its life.
In addition to looking for justification for hunting from their lordships, I have tried to establish whether they understand our primary motivation in reaching the conclusions that we have reached. They say that
"all . . . scientific evidence has been abandoned in a capitulation to zealotry and class prejudice."
"the fantasy that the fox is a cuddly and harmless little furry animal".
"We know all too well that for many Members in the other place, it is primarily a manifestation of class envy and dislike of toffs dressed up and on horseback."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 16 September 2003; Vol. 652, c. 783–825.]
And a bishop offered a rather un-Christian view when he accused MPs who support a ban of having a mental disorder. That was the nature of the debate in the other place.
The issue of liberty has been raised on a number of occasions. I come from the countryside and I have to question the position of those who say that they are on a march representing the countryside, and that the countryside supports hunting. In some areas, perhaps a majority do; in others, perhaps that is the minority view. It is not for me to judge, but I have listened to the arguments.
We have heard about the problems, challenges and pressures that this Bill will clearly create for the minority who enjoy hunting, but there are other minorities in rural areas, one of which is displeased by hunting. The Lords have told us that, as many have said today, liberty is the primary concern, but it is not just those who enjoy hunting who have the right to liberty—yet one gets the impression from reading their lordships' views that no one else matters.
Sometimes, liberties clash. There is the clash between those who derive pleasure from hunting and those who derive displeasure. What about the liberties of those who were born and brought up in the countryside, who know country ways—who know about foxes and other wildlife—and are proud of their parish and landscape, but who are offended by fox hunting whenever hunts come to their area? Are their liberties also taken into account? Of course, it is not just a question of liberties in relation to land. Often, those who own the land feel that it is up to them to decide what happens on it. Many of those who live in the countryside do not own much land, but they are entitled to have a view and to have their feelings about how the countryside should be managed taken into account. [Interruption.] Despite
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what Members might say from a sedentary position, those who own the land are merely custodians of it in the longer run.
Mr. Adrian Flook (Taunton) (Con): The hon. Gentleman talks about liberty. Would he care to comment on the constituent of mine who feels that he is helping liberty to flourish in Iraq by serving with 40 Commando? This gentleman has served our country valiantly trying to safeguard liberty, but when he returns he will discover that he is unable to participate in the hunting that he has pursued all his life. Does the hon. Gentleman think that fair?
Andrew George: Regardless of whether someone serving their country supports hunting, the fact is that the House—democracy—will ultimately decide whether the Bill should be enacted. I am sure that many who serve our country do not support fox hunting. Are we to listen only to the hon. Gentleman's constituent or to others who want to defend the liberties of those who are displeased by hunting in their parish?
Mr. Beith: As a Liberal, I am a bit worried by my hon. Friend's use of the word "displeased". I am displeased by lots of things, but I do not feel morally entitled to use the law to ban them. I need a stronger argument. I need to be convinced that there is serious cruelty that would be avoided by a ban. I am certainly not convinced by any of the alternative methods. Surely he is not erecting displeasure as a reason for sending other people to prison.
Andrew George: Some people who live in the countryside take pleasure from hunting and others are offended by it. A message is being sent out about how their community is represented, and suggesting to young people that this is a proper and acceptable way of behaving. My right hon. Friend is perfectly right to say that there is an argument for defending the liberties of one group over those of another, and I am not saying that a person's wish not to have hunting in their area is a pre-eminent freedom over that of those who want to have their pleasure from hunting, but we have to make the judgment on the arguments here.
It has been said that those who go hunting will be criminalised by the Bill. Many speakers in another place supported that argument. The fact is not that the Bill will criminalise people who enjoy hunting, but that those people who choose to break the law will criminalise themselves. Many of the 50,000 or so people who have signed a petition saying that they will break the law and continue hunting are responsible people—some of those in another place implied that they might be prepared to go so far—but what message does that send to animal rights activists? Does it not offer support for all those who wish to break the law in their own cause?
We have to weigh up the issues and come to our own conclusions, but the House has already spent hundreds of hours on this and come to its decision, with clear majorities, and it is time to send a clear message to the other place that it must accept the democratic will of the democratic and pre-eminent Chamber.
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5.23 pm
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