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Alun Michael: It is not for me, any more than it is for the hon. Member for North Wiltshire, to clarify the views of the Countryside Alliance, but the hon. Member for St. Ives (Andrew George) makes an important point. By going for the delay in commencement, the motion provides, beyond all doubt, extra time for people to behave reasonably in accepting the will of the House. It is not an unimportant consideration. I regret the threats of illegal action and protest by some hunt supporters. I understand that some people have dissociated themselves from those views. The Government have condemned such threats and believe that most people involved are law abiding and are prepared to respect the will of Parliament. The extra time for implementation provided by the suggested amendment will make it even clearer that illegal actions and threats or intimidation are totally unjustified. If people want to continue their opposition to the Bill, they have the option of expressing their views through the ballot box. I hope that the leaders of the Countryside Alliance will make their position clear.
 
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Gregory Barker: There is a long history of political protest in this country on both sides of the political equation. Does the Minister believe that there are any circumstances under which civil disobedience should be tolerated?

Alun Michael: It would not be right to extend the debate into philosophical issues of whether such action can ever be justified. I can say, however, that there is no such justification in relation to this Bill, especially if we allow the additional time suggested. I hope that the House of Lords will also give the suggestion serious consideration.

Miss Widdecombe: The Minister will be pleased to know that my intervention is about the time for implementation. He is making a persuasive case for a delay.

Gregory Barker: No, he is not.

Miss Widdecombe: My hon. Friend does not want a delay, but I accept that there is a persuasive case for one. However, there are two ways of approaching an 18-month delay. One is to use that time to re-home hounds, run down the activities and so on. The other is simply to treat it as a period of grace and to put off the day. What monitoring will be in place?

Alun Michael: The right hon. Lady makes an important point. I am asking people to prepare for the Bill's implementation during the period of delay. They should not, as she rightly points out, take it as an opportunity to put off the evil day and not to think about it. The Government would be prepared to engage with those who are willing to consider a more constructive future.

Mr. Hogg: The right hon. Gentleman advocates a delay, but that also gives the Government an opportunity to introduce a fully funded compensation scheme. Why will he not do that?

Alun Michael: I explained earlier when the right hon. Gentleman was not in the Chamber why we do not think a compensation scheme is necessary in any sense or in any way.

I said that I would comment further on the workings of this unusual procedure, by which the House may suggest an amendment to the other place. The Parliament Acts of 1911 and 1949 enable the will of this House to prevail in the face of disagreement between the two Houses. The procedure is available only if a reintroduced Bill is substantially unaltered, but section 2(4) of the 1911 Act provides that the Commons may suggest an amendment, which can be incorporated in a Bill, if it is accepted by the other place. If, in the face of the readiness of this House to use the Parliament Acts, the other place then agrees to the amended Bill, or agrees to amend the Bill, it can be enacted accordingly with the inclusion of the suggested amendment.

The procedure for proposing suggested amendments has been on the statute book for more than 90 years, but as far as I am aware, it has not previously been used. It
 
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is a matter for you, Mr. Speaker, to interpret the Parliament Acts and to determine when they apply to any measure.

Mr. Simon Thomas (Ceredigion) (PC): I am pleased that 90-year-old procedures can be used and look forward to an impeachment debate before too long.

On the period of commencement, we are likely to vote for 18 months. I accept how the figures stack up, but the other place will know that the Government originally had two years in mind. The Minister explained why he wants to accept 18 months. What he has not told us is why the Government initially wanted two years. What was their thinking behind that? It could not have been plucked out of thin air because that is not possible, is it? Why is 18 months better than two years?

Alun Michael: Very simply, two years seemed a reasonable period, but, having looked at the practicalities, it became clear that going to the shorter period would take us beyond the latest possible date for the next general election. That makes it clear that the ballot box and not some other means is the way to deal with objections. It also means that the ban comes in before the start of a new hunting season. So 18 months makes sense on a number of grounds. I have made it clear that we accepted the argument, after some discussion, and that I support the proposal.

I have also been asked what would happen if the other place accepts the suggested amendment but fails to pass the Bill or passes it with amendments that this House is unable to accept. My understanding from reading the 1911 Act is that the House could present the Bill for Royal Assent under the Parliament Act, but only with the existing three-month commencement provision. I would certainly defer to the ruling of Mr. Speaker, but that is my understanding in order to inform the thinking of the House. The only other way to change the date of commencement would be to introduce a one-clause Bill to that effect.

On this matter, as on so much else, I simply hope that common sense will triumph so that a hunting Bill, which this House has sought consistently over a number of years, will be put in place in an orderly way and democracy will prevail and be respected, even by those who did not want a ban enacted.

6.17 pm

Mr. Tony Banks (West Ham) (Lab): I beg to move amendment (d), in line 5, leave out from "force" to end of line 6 and insert "on 31st July 2006".

Mr. Speaker: With this, it will be convenient to consider the following amendments: (e), in line 6, leave out "two" and insert "four".

(f), in line 6, leave out "two" and insert "five".

(b), in line 6, leave out "two years" and insert "one year".

Mr. Banks: I declare my interest as a vice-president of the League Against Cruel Sports and pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Minister for his work on the issue and his understanding of it. He has taken a load on himself. It is something of a poisoned chalice, but he has acquitted himself well.
 
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I asked myself two questions in relation to amendment (d). First, is the issue important? Last week, we debated the proposed European constitution, which I think is vital. There were 20 Members in the Chamber and there was virtually nary a word about it in the media. Today, the House is packed to the rafters and the debate is running live in the media, with blanket coverage—so the facts seem to say that it is important.

Gregory Barker: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Banks: No.

Secondly, is it a class issue? Well, yes it is. It is a middle class, middle England issue. The profile of the average passionate anti-hunter is a white, middle class woman, living in the home counties or in a county town or village, who reads the Daily Mail. I have had more letters on this subject than any other hon. Member. It is not a case of urban guerrillas versus toffs. Some of my best friends are toffs. Indeed, I hope to become a toff myself one day.

I tabled amendment (d), and I realise that not all my colleagues who support the Bill are happy with it. I understand and share their feelings, so perhaps I can explain my motives and reasoning. I want a ban in place as much as anyone in the House, but I also want to guarantee that it will happen. The Government wanted a commencement date beyond any possible date for a general election and so tabled a two-year delay in implementation. In discussions with Ministers, as my right hon. Friend said, they decided to move their position.

Miss Widdecombe: I am grateful to my temporary hon. Friend for giving way. Many of us, despite having listened to the case for a delay, feel very uneasy about it. What support, or otherwise, for an 18-month delay has he received from the RSPCA and the International Fund for Animal Welfare?

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