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Mr. Banks: Almost to a person, Labour Members in marginal rural constituencies and with hunts in their constituencies want a ban at the earliest possible time. With regard to voting, the Countryside Alliance and those that generally support it would not vote for my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister or the Labour party if we brought back witch burning and public executions and handed out free cider while they were watching.

Mr. Gray: I am delighted for the hon. Gentleman and hope that his hon. Friends are as confident as he sounds. If he is right, that is fine. However, the picture will be extremely plain in the forthcoming general election: this Government have banned hunting; a Conservative Government will be committed to reintroduce hunting with a free vote on both sides of the House. The 1 million people who care passionately about hunting will not necessarily wish to discuss it during the general election campaign, but one thing is for sure—they will put their shoulders to the Conservative wheel to ensure that we throw out this illiberal Labour Government and bring in a free Conservative Government.

Mr. John Taylor (Solihull) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The whole House knows that we shall rise tomorrow. In the past 24 hours some very alarming news has reached Members concerning the
 
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future and security of the motor industry in the west Midlands. Will you use your good offices to ask the Secretary of State to come to the Dispatch Box before the House rises so that Members with an interest in the midlands motor industry can put questions to her?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: There is still time for the hon. Gentleman to use the procedures available to him to seek to raise that matter. He could submit an application to Mr. Speaker that will no doubt receive his serious consideration.

David Winnick: I agree with that point of order.

Does the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) agree that if Members of Parliament refused to vote for what they believe in because they were frightened of losing their seats that would reflect very badly on the House as a whole? If my hon. Friends and I trembled at his words, we would have no integrity and would be abandoning what we believe to be right.

Mr. Gray: The hon. Gentleman speaks for himself. I suspect that listening carefully to what voters in one's constituency are thinking and doing is an extremely important part of democracy. He is right that some Members of Parliament will ignore their constituents and do something that they do not like, but they will have to face the consequences.

It is important to examine very carefully the precise justification that the Minister advanced for the 18-month delay. Of course, we welcome that as far as it goes, because we would rather have a ban in 18 months than in 12 months. However, it shows a complete ignorance of the way in which hunting works. The average hound has a working life of at least seven years, sometimes much longer—some can hunt until they are 10 or 15. The Minister said that it is disgraceful that some of these animals are destroyed at the end of their working lives. All large working dogs, including police alsatians, have a working life of about seven years. Many are rehomed, but by no means all. A great many large working dogs of all kinds, including farm dogs and police dogs, are put down humanely at the end of their working lives.

The rather bizarre report produced by the all-party group on animal welfare suggests that there are alternative uses for these dogs, of which there may be 30,000, 40,000 or 50,000 across England—26,000 fox hounds and a large number of other working dogs. What is going to happen to them? In the report, the RSPCA suggests that it might be possible to rehome them. Some of these dogs are extremely large—perhaps the height of the Table—and extremely powerful. They are used to living in kennels in the company of 80, 100 or 120 other hounds. The idea that they could be removed individually and rehomed in domestic circumstances is ludicrous, as anyone who has ever encountered a working fox hound from a kennel will know. It would be cruel to take it away and put it in someone's front lounge, and it is not a sensible option.

The report also suggests retraining the hounds for drag hunting. If a pack of hounds has been trained to chase the scent of a fox, a deer or a mink, it is impossible
 
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to imagine their somehow being retrained to hunt a bag of aniseed. Even if it were possible, what would happen when they were out on their day's drag hunting and came across a fox? Under the Bill, we do not know whether intent to kill a fox is the crime; indeed, we do not know what the offence of hunting is. One of the scandals of the way in which it has been handled is that there has been no definition of hunting or of who is doing it—is it the master, the whippers-in, people two fields away, or a passing tourist who happens to see what is going on? We do not know and the Bill does not tell us: the courts will have to examine that.

If, as the report suggests, fox hounds are to be reused, let us imagine that all 26,000 were reused as drag hounds—a ludicrous suggestion, but let us imagine it nevertheless. If they accidentally kill a fox, a deer or a mink in the course of their normal day's drag hunting, is that an offence? The Minister might like to enlighten us, because it is not clear from the Bill.

It is odd that the report ignores the submission by the British Veterinary Association, which knows what it is talking about and which concludes that it would not be possible to rehome or to retrain these animals and that the only way to deal with such a substantial number would be humanely to kill them at the end of their working lives.

There is no question but that the Bill will result in the deaths of perhaps 30,000, 40,000 or 50,000 dogs as soon as it comes in. I welcome the 18-month delay in the sense that action can be taken with regard to breeding, and it may be wound down. However, a great many young puppies—the new entry, as we call it—will have come in this summer and may have seven or 10 years ahead of them. When I was out autumn hunting last week, a 13-year-old hound was hunting. Those young hounds may have 13 years ahead of them, and the 18-month delay will have no effect on them.

The same applies to many horses. They can more easily be reused for hacking, but many lower-grade horses are kept exclusively for hunting. Almost certainly, the capital value of hunters will collapse as a result of the ban; that in itself has some welfare consequences.

Gregory Barker: Does my hon. Friend agree that not only low-grade horses but many thoroughbreds are unsuitable for hacking? I have a thoroughbred—a retired racehorse—[Laughter.] I do not know why that is funny. I happen to love horses—obviously Labour Members do not. I am lucky to have a retired racehorse, with which I hunt. He would not make a comfortable hack. When there is no use for horses like that, there may be no permanent use for them in riding schools.

Mr. Gray: My hon. Friend makes an important point. The Horse and Pony Taxation Committee, which I chaired until recently, and several other horse organisations that have no position on hunting, made it plain that a collapse in the value of horses will occur as a result of a ban. That will have some welfare consequences, although fewer than those for hounds.

David Taylor: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way on that point, although he declined to do so earlier when he turned 6,700 full and part-time people into the
 
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equivalent of 8,000 full-time people. Perhaps he can explain the arithmetic of that to me in the bar afterwards.

On the economics that he is currently considering, does he accept that most assessors suggest that when equestrian activity is detached from the taint of hunting, more people will want to ride and be involved, and the number of jobs will therefore grow by more than the 600 or 700 direct jobs that may be lost when the hunts disappear?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind hon. Members that we are dealing with the amendment. I do not want us to stray too far back into the substance of the debate, albeit truncated, on Second Reading.

Mr. Gray: The hon. Gentleman suggests that there is some value in delaying the Bill's implementation because that will benefit the 6,000 to 8,000 people who will lose their jobs. He argues that that is somehow progressive. For clarity, I shall quote paragraph 18 of the Burns report, which states:

"We estimate that somewhere between 6,000 and 8,000 full-time equivalent jobs presently depend on hunting, although the number of people involved may be significantly higher."

I do not intend to get into a backwards-and-forwards discussion with the hon. Gentleman, because even if the figure were 50 people or 10 people it would be a matter of concern to the House. Many people will lose their livelihoods as a result of what has happened today.

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