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Mr. Morley: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Gray: I shall give way in a second, but we should listen to Mr. Deputy Speaker's injunction and not go too far into the issue.

The hon. Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor) argued that the horse industry would somehow grow as a result of a ban on hunting. No evidence exists to suggest that that would happen. The most recent DEFRA-commissioned report—the Henley report—mentioned the deleterious effect that the ban on hunting would have on the horse industry. There is no suggestion that a ban would increase the amount of horse riding for other purposes.

Mr. Morley: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Gray: Before the Minister intervenes, I want to make it plain that, although I am happy to take a brief intervention on the number of jobs, the significant point is that it will be a large number. If he stands up, cites some other paragraph in the Burns report and says that the figure is "only 5,700", that would be an irrelevant intervention. Whatever the figure—5,700, 6,700, 10,000 or 300—the number of people is significant. With that caveat, I am happy to give way.

Mr. Morley: The hon. Gentleman has pre-empted me; I have the figures. According to Burns's figures, hunts directly employ 710 people—I refer the hon. Gentleman to paragraph 3.37. Followers directly employ 1,497 people. I do not know how many of those people do other things. Of course, there are others—up to 5,000 is the figure provided—who have some connection with
 
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the hunt. That does not necessarily mean that all those people will lose their jobs. I do not play down the matter. There is an employment issue, and we should face up to it. However, it does not help to exaggerate the position. Far more people than those mentioned in the Burns report lost their jobs in the steel industry in my constituency alone.

Mr. Gray: I warned the Minister that I did not intend to enter into a backwards-and-forwards discussion on numbers because the figures are plain: many people will lose their livelihoods as a result of the Bill. However, the end of the Minister's intervention was interesting. He sought to make fun of my comments about numbers—we could argue about that; it is an interesting academic subject—but he finished by saying, "Anyhow, lots of jobs were lost in the steel industry." One or two other hon. Members said earlier, "You never said that about the miners when Thatcher threw them out." Revenge is therefore all right. I do not accept that.

We are discussing implementation of the measure and whether an 18-month delay will be useful. The many thousands of people—I suspect that it will be tens of thousands if we include saddlers, farriers and others who are involved—that the Bill affects will not be helped by the 18-month delay. That is the substantive point.

Andrew George : In some senses, the Minister's intervention helps the hon. Gentleman and me to make the case, which the Government previously rejected, for compensation. Both he and I believe that, if the measure is to be implemented, those who are affected should be compensated, just as other communities were helped through regeneration funds when there was a decline in the steel industry.

Mr. Gray: We were prevented from discussing compensation because of the House's inability to consider the measure in detail. We spoke about it at some length during the previous Bill's passage. The Government ignored it and the Minister for Rural Affairs and Local Environmental Quality told me across the Dispatch Box that those who lost their jobs could go to the jobcentre the same as anybody else. However, when the Government abolished fur farming—about which the Labour party took a similar principled stance to that on hunting—they introduced compensation for the fur farmers who lost their jobs. They should do the same in the case that we are considering, which we do not have an opportunity to discuss.

Mr. Swire: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Gray: If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I am genuinely trying to wind up my remarks. I have been on my feet for some time and I am keen for others to speak. However, I shall give way briefly.

Mr. Swire: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is time to nail the comparison with the decline in the steel industry and other industries—

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We have moved further and further away from the amendment. I encourage
 
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hon. Members to come back to the terms of the motion and amendment; otherwise, there will certainly be no time to discuss all the matters that they wish to raise.

Mr. Gray: The measure affects not only the people who will lose their jobs but the farmers who will have 500,000 carcases, most of which currently go to hunts, a year to dispose of, the hunts, who will have the problem of what to do with their hounds, the fox population, which will explode as a direct result of the ban, and game shooting, poultry and sheep farming. It is interesting that, under the Bill as drafted, people are allowed to use terriers underground to save game shooting. That is considered acceptable. However, someone who uses terriers underground to save the 380,000 lambs a year that foxes kill will go to prison. Someone who uses terriers underground to save poultry farming, which suffers terrible depredations from foxes, will go to prison. Terriers may be used underground only to save game shooting. I welcome that, but it shows the absurdity of the detail of the Bill. The 18-month delay will not help.

The consequences of implementation in three months or 12 months—and immediate implementation for hare coursing, on which I shall not expand except to say that I do not agree with the Government's argument—are too horrible to contemplate from almost every perspective.

The Government's cynical offer of a delay is an insult to the intelligence of country people. We know why the Minister made the offer: to avoid too bad a backlash in the approaching general election. It has nothing to do with animal welfare. It will assuage neither our fury nor our determination by one whit. I urge hon. Members to accept the proposal for a delay of 18 months, but it would have been better to accept our five-year proposal, which would have taken good account of the animal welfare consequences of the delay.

Those who believe in freedom and tolerance and love the countryside will devote every ounce of their strength to removing the illiberal Labour Government who have ruined their lives in the sure and certain knowledge that an incoming Conservative Government will introduce a Bill to repeal the damaging, illiberal and disgraceful measure.

6.49 pm

Jean Corston (Bristol, East) (Lab): I am delighted that, once again, the House of Commons has voted by an overwhelming majority in favour of a Bill to ban hunting. I have been a lifelong opponent of hunting and my opposition was reinforced before Christmas last year when I saw a fox being torn apart by hounds of the Beaufort hunt just off the public highway.

I want to refer particularly to the human rights aspects of the commencement date, in support of the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Mr. Banks). Hon. Members will know that I chair the Joint Committee on Human Rights. As part of its scrutiny process, the Committee—which does not have a Government majority—has to put aside political views and be guided solely by legal advice on the compatibility of provisions proposed in legislation with the European convention on human rights and other international instruments.
 
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In this regard, it is important to remember that article 1 of protocol No. 1 of the European convention, which we have incorporated into domestic law, states:

"Every natural or legal person is entitled to the quiet enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles of international law."

Let us face it—banning hunting does interfere with property rights, in terms of the use of private land and the ownership and management of hounds, for example. In the Government's correspondence with the Committee, the Government advanced two propositions. One was that a total prohibition of hunting amounted only to a control on property, rather than a deprivation of it. The Joint Committee on Human Rights agreed with that.

The Government went on to assert that a prohibition would result only in a control on the benefit of contracts relating to hunting. Such contracts include the employment contracts to which several hon. Members have referred, and contracts undertaken by people who provide goods and services. The Joint Committee on Human Rights disagreed with that proposition on contracts that had already been entered into, for a number of reasons. The first was that there was no history of progressive legislative restriction of hunting with dogs over a long period in this country. The second was that there had been no announcement by the Government that they intended to legislate in a particular way. The third was that a legitimate expectation cannot be lost because the Government are consulting on possible future legislation. After all, the first Bill offered three options, only one of which involved a complete ban. Fourthly, there was no certainty about the content of any future Bill, and, fifthly, there was no certainty that the Parliament Acts would be used if necessary.

One does not have to be an aficionado of "The Archers" to know that the people involved in hunting never believed that this day would come; one has only to go outside the House today. The Joint Committee on Human Rights therefore concluded that the Government had not publicly advanced such a clear policy of banning hunting that people should automatically lose the legitimate expectation that their contracts would be effective and enforceable. In short, we need to give notice. The question is: how long should that notice period be, and to what purposes should it be put?

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