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Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): I am listening to the right hon. Lady's argument with great care. She mentioned earlier that one of the considerations involved was the public interest. Will she tell us how the public interest will be served by making criminals of ordinary, decent, law-abiding folk who wish quietly to participate in their country pursuits?
Jean Corston: There is nothing in this Bill that will turn anyone into a criminal. People will become criminals if they decide to disobey the law.
What would be a reasonable commencement date? What would be a reasonable period for people with contracts related to hunting to make alternative arrangements? The hunting season has started, and it is evident that people have made financial and
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employment commitments to cover this season. I would suggest that it would be reasonable to allow this season to proceed and to allow one further hunting season. That would enable people—if they wish, and if they are sensible—to consider alternatives such as drag hunting. It would also enable the people employed in hunting, whatever their numbers, to look for other work, and enable those who provide goods and services to find other markets, as we are urging them to do.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Jean Corston: No, I am sorry, I will not.
Whatever happens, there will be an election before 31 July 2006, which is the date referred to in the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham. The Countryside Alliance has said that 59 per cent. of people support hunting, but I have never accepted or believed that figure. The important thing is, however, that if the alliance thinks that the British people feel that it has right on its side, it will have the opportunity, as part of the democratic process at the general election, to advance that argument. It might succeed, although I doubt it very much. We shall see. It is up to the people outside today, the people who are used always to having the law on their side, to recognise the will of Parliament.
Gregory Barker: Will the right hon. Lady give way?
In my opinion, and according to most opinion polls, the majority of people in this country are opposed to hunting. Even if they were not, I am opposed to it—if the majority of people in this country were in favour of capital punishment, I would still be opposed to it—and I have to say what I think is right. I do not think that what I saw the Beaufort hunt hounds doing to that fox before Christmas last year has any place in a civilised society.
Mr. Hogg: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am sorry to raise a matter that is slightly outside the scope of this debate, but it touches directly on the rights and duties of Members of Parliament. There is, as you know, a demonstration going on outside. Members of Parliament have a right to observe what is going on, partly to ensure that disproportionate force is not being used by the police and also to ensure that their constituents can be apprised of the facts.
I was seeking to walk from St. Stephen's entrance to Carriage Gates when I was stopped by a police sergeant. I asked him by what authority he had stopped me, and a discussion followed. He then cited the Sessional Orders and the commissioner's regulations. I do not believe that either of those entitles a policeman to stop a member of the public or a Member for Parliament proceeding along that highway. The police have no right to do anything that is not authorised by statute, by common law or by the regulations of this House. I was therefore prevented from doing something that I feel is my duty. I ask you to ask Mr. Speaker whether he will raise this matter directly with the commissioner. This has happened to me twice today, as well as on previous occasions. It is wrong in principle, and I believe that the police are overusing their powers. I hope that the Chair will look into this matter.
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Incidentally, the sergeant in question was courteous. I took his name and he has mine, and I shall be writing to the commissioner, but I make no complaint about the way in which the sergeant handled himself. I am merely concerned that the way in which the rules are being interpreted is wrong.
Mr. Gerald Howarth: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I also put on record the fact that I, too, had some difficulty with the police when seeking to get back here to vote during one of the earlier Divisions today? Furthermore, a number of other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), have had difficulties with police officers today. I sent an e-mail to the Serjeant at Arms yesterday asking him to ensure that the Metropolitan Police Commissioner made it clear to his officers that Members of Parliament should have access to the protesters outside and be able to get back to the House. I am sorry to say that, despite the Serjeant at Arms's reassurances that the police had been alerted to my request, it appears that, in too many instances, they had not. This is not a satisfactory state of affairs.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that sufficient has been said on this matter, bearing in mind the overall time situation. The right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) and the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) have raised a serious matter, and I am sure that Mr. Speaker will seek to find out exactly what happened. On the one hand, this House obviously places extreme importance on its Sessional Orders and on freedom of access. At the same time, however, there was clearly a very difficult situation outside. The interpretation of our rights might, therefore, have been dealt with more narrowly than right hon. and hon. Members would find ideal, although I do not know the exact circumstances. The matter has been put on record, and Mr. Speaker will discuss it with the Serjeant at Arms and, if necessary, further afield, to check exactly what the situation is.
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Andrew George: I intend to be brief. On the date for the commencement of this legislation, the hon. Member for West Ham (Mr. Banks) knows well that I have signed his amendment and I encourage and support the principle that the Government have ultimately adopted in proposing to delay the implementation of this Bill. Clearly, that amendment recognises that it would be most appropriate for implementation of the Bill to be introduced during the close season for fox hunting. It would be inappropriate to implement it not long after cubbing has been completed and the winter season for fox hunting commenced, which would otherwise be the case.
I want to make two other points on the commencement date. The first, to which the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) referred obliquely, is in respect of the animal by-products order and the responsibility of Government and the agricultural sector to ensure that all fallen stock are disposed of within the regulation. As the Minister knows well, the Government have been wrestling with this issue for far longer than they would wish before
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finally announcing the establishment of a national fallen stock collection scheme. I know that an announcement has been made, but many farmers are concerned about its effective implementation.
As the hon. Member for North Wiltshire pointed out correctly, a large number of those fallen stock are taken to hunt kennels, which provide a valuable service to the Government through the services that they provide to the agricultural sector. When the Minister winds up, or at some later stage of the debate, it would be helpful if he would clarify that the Government have a further 18 months in which to find alternatives or—
Mr. Morley: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. I was not planning to wind up in order to allow Members more time, but I will answer his point directly. A number of hunts have contracted within the fallen stock collection scheme. It is a contractual arrangement—a business—about which we are very relaxed. Whatever future decisions hunts make, if they wish to continue with that contract and provide that service, which provides employment now for hunt workers, they are free to do so.
Andrew George: I am grateful to the Minister for that clarification. He must anticipate that, as a result of the passing of this Bill, further adjustment will be needed among a large number of hunts if they do not intend to continue with kennels either through drag hunting or other means. I hope that the Government will work closely with those who currently provide that service through hunts to ensure that the agricultural sector is given that support.
The second point on the date of commencement, which was raised on Report and Third Reading last year by me and many other Members from all parties, is that a precipitous decision to implement such a measure would have a significant impact on small rural communities, even if it is on only a few of them. The case was therefore made for a compensation package, which was supported by Members on both sides of the House. That was refused, and although it has been debated obliquely today, I hope that the Minister and his Department, as they negotiate on how this measure is to be implemented, will reflect on whether their decision not to provide compensation is appropriate. If the Minister is right, and the numbers affected are small, the overall cost to taxpayers is also likely to be low. I therefore hope that careful consideration will be given to resolving those issues over the next 18 months, and that the decision not to apply a compensation package will be reviewed.
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