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Mr. Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): The hon. Gentleman referred to 1998, but he is as aware as I am that the Prime Minister promised publicly to end the hunting of wild animals with hounds by the end of the 1997 Parliament. He failed, and some of us are appalled that he and his colleagues are contemplating still further delay.
Mr. Foster: I cannot recall those exact words from the Prime Minister. I do not believe that he actually said that it would be dealt with by the end of the 1997 Parliament. The manifesto commitment said that we would have a free vote on the issue. I regret the delay and believe that we should have dealt with the issue long ago, but I support the idea of specifying a reasonable period of time before the Act commences, as laid down in the amendment. I do so because I believe that the House has a duty to help those whom we want to encourage to switch to alternatives such as drag hunting. We need to allow time for that process to happen.
I would like to explain how I envisage that happening. To switch to drag hunting, hunts would have to register with the Draghounds and Bloodhounds Association. To do that, they would have to register the land on which they intend to hunt. To do that, in turn, they would have to secure permission from the appropriate farmers or landowners, and I accept that that might take more than three months. So what time scale am I happy with? I think that a case for 12 months, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) suggested, could be argued. However, we should think about the hunting season for fox hunting, which tends to end in March. Although the resolution does not kick in until 31 July, the effect would be that the hunting season would end in March. The alternative that my right hon. Friend considered was ending perhaps at the end of November or the beginning of December—some three or four months before that. We are arguing about a period of only three or four months to ensure that all our considerations are dealt with.
Rather than have the sort of disgraceful scenes that we have seen taking place outside the House—and, unfortunately, inside the Chamber—if people want to take to the streets and to cause violence, it is worth encouraging them, if they are so concerned, to express their displeasure in the ballot box.
Miss Widdecombe: I thank the hon. Gentleman and take the opportunity to congratulate him on the huge part that he has played in bringing about today's result. Can he provide me with any evidence at all that this period—as long as 18 months or, if to March, a little shorter than that—will be used to run down hunts in an orderly and humane fashion rather than simply used as a period of grace?
Mr. Foster:
I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for her question. I believe that the Countryside Alliance and their advisers have misled the vast majority of people engaged in hunting to the extent that they did not believe that Parliament was serious about dealing with this issue
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and bringing it to a conclusion. I honestly believe that they did not think that this day would come. This day has come, so there is a very clear signal from this day forward that hunts will make changes.
I know that the organiser of the Draghounds and Bloodhounds Association had some discussions with others during the period of my private Member's Bill to find out how hunts would convert. In fact, it was put to me that some of the more prestigious hunts in the country would be looking to act quite quickly so that they could grab the best pieces of land on which to hunt. The only other piece of evidence that I have—I am glad that the right hon. Lady asked her question—is an advert taken from this Saturday's Worcester Evening News. I do not believe for one minute that it will be the substitute that all hunts follow. Nevertheless, the Worcestershire hunt supporters club advertises a "Round Rushock Ride" on Sunday 26 September. It will start from Callimore farm, last for two and a half hours and be an approximately 12 mile pleasure ride with optional jumps. The entry fees for adult and junior riders are published. I am inclined to think that that is perhaps a snippet of evidence suggesting that hunts can have an alternative to what they currently do in chasing live quarries.
Gregory Barker: Anyone familiar with these sorts of events knows perfectly well that they are nothing like hunting and do not provide a substitute for it. They are something entirely different from hunting and the hon. Gentleman obviously has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.
Mr. Foster: I am most grateful for that contribution—as ever, very short on knowledge about what I have done to carry this issue forward. I went out with the Worcestershire hunt to see what it did and I found it most instructive to see how a hunt was organised. I was often put in a position where I was at the front of the field and I could see the fox running, despite its natural reaction to flee from its chasers, towards me. I recognised the skill in how the hunt was organised. As a lay person, one would have thought that the fox would try to escape any way it could, but by coincidence I was always there. On one occasion, the fox brushed past my leg—and those of the people accompanying me on the hunt. To show me how humane the hunt was, the fox went past my leg. Hunt supporters pretend that hunting as an activity is purely natural. I believe that that is a lie.
Mr. Foster:
Let me explain the relevance of that point. If there is a switch to drag hunting and if a hunt is organised in such a way that people can enjoy the pleasure of the ride—hunt supporters tell me that that is what they want—they can still have an enjoyable day in the countryside. Hunt supporters also often say, "We are never there at the kill to see the end of the fox, so why on earth do we have to chase a live mammal?" There is no point in it, nor any need for it. I support the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham. It proposes a reasonable delay to smooth
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the transition. It will ensure that we end, once and for all, this cruel spectacle of killing a wild mammal just for sport.
7.50 pm
Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): I rise to speak with a great deal of sadness. The amendment to give a stay execution for 18 months to the noble sport of fox hunting signifies the reintroduction of a Bill that is vicious, illiberal and wholly unjustifiable.
The Bill is an affront to every citizen who values liberty and tolerance. I am certain that, when all the arguments have been laid to rest and historians look back at this time, no one will see the measure in the context of animal welfare. The last time this measure came before the House, I sat through interminable Committee sittings. No convincing animal welfare arguments were made that proved that fox hunting was demonstrably more cruel to foxes than any other form of control.
I have been involved in fox hunting, but I was involved in animal welfare organisations before I entered party politics. I know that it is cruel to shoot a fox and leave it to suffer, or to snare or gas a fox, but animal welfare forms no part of the nasty, vicious and illiberal argument put forward by Labour Members. The Bill is all about settling little scores. It is part of the little Labour shibboleth, and it represents the tick-box mentality of the brothers and sisters on that side of the House.
What has made today so unpleasant is the look of glee evident on so many Labour Members' faces. They do not give a cuss about the people in the countryside who are going to lose their jobs. They could not give a monkey's for the people who, ultimately, will lose their homes, or for the people who will lose the sport that they have followed for years, and the friendship that goes with it.
The Bill will cause real human misery. It may not be on a great scale, involving hundreds of thousands of people, but real distress will be caused to families and people who have known only one career and way of life. For many Labour Members, this is about getting one back for the miners. We have heard many nasty little jibes from Labour Members, who have said that the Bill pays the Opposition back for the miners. I think that we heard the Minister for Rural Affairs and Local Environmental Quality say, "Remember the steel workers." How nasty and backward looking is that?
Claire Ward: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Gregory Barker: No. The hon. Lady did not give way to anyone when she spoke.
Claire Ward: I have not spoken in this debate.
Gregory Barker:
In that case, I beg the hon. Lady's pardon—although what I said was correct: she did not give way. However, I shall let her in when I have finished my point, and when she has finished laughing and cheering.
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The spectacle of Labour Members welcoming this Bill with glee is stomach churning. Although I rose to speak with sadness, I can tell the House that that sadness will be translated into bitter anger in the outside world. People will look at how casually Labour Members have trodden and trampled on other people's way of life, and thrown away rights that have been enjoyed for centuries—all for the sake of finishing the job that their party began. The spectacle is horrible to behold.
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