---

Claire Ward: The hon. Gentleman has said that my Front-Bench colleagues are involved in some sort of payback for what happened to the miners. The Bill is not a payback: it is about doing the right thing. The point that Ministers made was that the Opposition, when they were in government and decided to close the pits, did not care two hoots about the livelihoods of thousands of people and families. We are trying to delay commencement so that we can talk to people about what is going to happen. That contrasts with what the hon. Gentleman's party did when it was in government.

Gregory Barker: I entered the House three years ago. The point that the hon. Lady makes is totally erroneous and wrong, but what the previous Conservative Government did had nothing to do with me. Their action does not inform my politics, but it is clear that there remains a huge amount of residual bigotry among Labour Members. The way in which they wallow in other people's distress is really unpleasant.

The Bill shows the Government's total disregard for evidence. Once again, they have ignored the experts and sacrificed both principle and evidence in favour of political expediency. This is government and legislation for the few—that is, the parliamentary Labour party—and not for the many.

As I said when I began, this debate will be remembered not for the 18-month delay or for the arguments about animal welfare but because it is a pernicious and sectarian piece of legislation that runs totally counter to how our country is developing. We live in an increasingly diverse and pluralistic society. More and more of our time and trouble in this House is devoted to making sure that the rights of minorities are protected. We go out of our way to try to understand the point of view of other people. We may have very little in common with them, or very little understanding of them, and we may even speak a different language and have a very different culture, but those people add to the diversity of our society. So why is the Labour party blind to the fact that a rich element of our island's culture is being obliterated?

The small minority involved in fox hunting has rights too. I understand that Labour Members may disapprove of fox hunting, and that they find it distasteful. However much their views may be based on incorrect facts or a lack of evidence, they are perfectly entitled to hold them, but they are not entitled to use their position in this House to criminalise hundreds of thousands of law-abiding people.

Yet that is what Labour Members are doing, and they are abusing the parliamentary process as they go about it. I am glad that we have a second Chamber to revise Government legislation. I sincerely hope that the House of Lords exercises its role properly, and that it sends this nasty, pernicious and sectarian Bill back to this House.
 
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1391
 

There has to be a check on the rule of the mob, and on the majority imposing its views on the minority. History will not judge this Bill on grounds of animal welfare or on how toffs dress up. It will judge it on the way in which Labour Members were prepared to be so intolerant, illiberal and bigoted. They want to impose their narrow little view of the world on a group of people about whom they could not really care less.

Mr. Tom Harris (Glasgow, Cathcart) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman says that he hopes that the other place will reject this measure once again. Does he consider this Chamber to be sovereign in this Parliament? How many times must this Chamber arrive at the same decision before he accepts that that decision represents the democratic will of hon. Members? Does he genuinely believe that the House of Lords has the right to reject time and time again any measure that he happens to disagree with?

Gregory Barker: That is exactly why the House of Lords is there. The hon. Gentleman talks about the will of this Chamber but, in this evening's vote on Second Reading, the majority in favour of the Bill was very small. That is the first time that that has happened. I was a Teller when the Bill was last considered by the House, and 319 hon. Members voted for a ban on that occasion. Today, most Members of the House of Commons either voted against the Bill, or abstained from voting, or absented themselves. In no way can that vote be summed up as representing the great will of Parliament.

The Parliament Acts were not invented to be used to force through the bigoted views of a minority in the House of Commons.

Mr. Bellingham: My hon. Friend has spoken about how hon. Members abstained or absented themselves, but is he aware that the Prime Minister—who was here for Prime Minister's Question Time—absented himself from all the Divisions? What does he make of that?

Gregory Barker: It is the cowardice and double-speak that we have come to expect—

Claire Ward: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. I think I heard what the hon. Gentleman said. Perhaps he would like to withdraw the word that he just used about the Prime Minister.

Gregory Barker: Which particular word, Mr. Deputy Speaker?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Cowardice.

Gregory Barker: I shall happily withdraw "cowardice".

Mr. Robathan: Are we not allowed to say cowardice?

Miss Widdecombe: Try timidity.

Gregory Barker: Yes. Timidity and lack of courage might perhaps have been better choices of words on this occasion.
 
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1392
 

The test of courage comes when we are in the minority. The test of tolerance comes when we are in the majority. It is clear tonight that the majority in this House have proved themselves totally intolerant and illiberal. They will reap the whirlwind for it.

The test of the courage of the minority has only just begun. I know for certain that the minority who support and practise country sports will certainly continue to fight the ban every inch of the way. If Labour Members think that this is the last they have heard of it, they are very much mistaken.

8 pm

Claire Ward (Watford) (Lab): I feel some sense of comfort in contributing to this debate, because I can begin to see some light at the end of what has been a very dark tunnel for Members of Parliament and people throughout the country who want an end to fox hunting. We have spent many hours over my seven years as a Member of the House debating whether to ban fox hunting. For a range of reasons, and despite the clear will of the House, as demonstrated through numerous votes on numerous occasions, it has sometimes seemed that achieving a ban on fox hunting was almost beyond our grasp. Now, we have a chance to get the ban through.

I am astonished that the Conservative party and its Front-Bench spokesperson have indicated that were the Conservatives to form the Government after the next general election, one of their first priorities would be to legislate to reverse the ban on hunting. Frankly, it is time to move on. There is no doubt that our constituents consider many other issues to be important—health, education and many more areas to which they want this House to turn its attention. We must, finally, put an end to this.

Mr. Cameron : The hon. Lady mentions what an incoming Conservative Government will do, but does she recognise that it is a lot easier to undo legislation and allow people to do things than it is to make them criminal, which is why this Bill has taken so long and been so difficult?

Claire Ward: The hon. Gentleman can continue to believe in his dreamland that the Conservative party will form the next Government and be able to restore hunting, but I think that as time goes on it will be extremely difficult for any Government to reverse a ban on the idea that it is acceptable for people to chase across the country in pursuit of a fox as a form of sport and to watch it being torn apart by hounds. We live in a modern, 21st century country that should be looking at a range of other activities rather than a barbaric and unacceptable one.

We have heard a lot about minorities. Of course our job should be to take account of minority views, but not where those minority views are, in my opinion and in the opinion of many other Members, wrong and unacceptable. Nor should those minority views be held above the views of the majority. A clear majority of people in the country wish to see a ban on fox hunting.

Gregory Barker: In that case, what view does the hon. Lady take of al-Hamid?
 
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1393
 

Claire Ward: That is a quite separate issue, and I am sure that Mr. Deputy Speaker would rule me out of order for speaking about it on the procedural motion. Religious issues are very different, and they are not the issue here. We are talking about a sport in which people chase across the country as a form of Saturday or Sunday morning entertainment in order to see a fox being torn apart. I do not believe that that is acceptable, and that is clearly the view of this House.

I do not wish to spend huge amounts of my time going over the issues on hunting when the debate is clearly about the procedural implementation of legislation. My name is appended to amendment (b), which was tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman), and I should have preferred the ban to be brought in much earlier than is being proposed. However, I accept that negotiations and discussions have taken place and that the Government have thought carefully about how to ensure some balance so that the hunting community can look at the issues—even if it has had seven years to recognise that a ban was very much on the cards. That community now has perhaps 18 months to consider what it is prepared to do to find alternative uses.

---