| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Clifton-Brown: I happily give way to the Minister; perhaps he can clarify that point.
Alun Michael: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way because it is important that hon. Members understand the position, so that there are no misapprehensions of the sort that have been put about in some unfortunate speeches that have been made today. I have signed the declaration on the basis of firm legal advice that there are no human rights transgressions or problems in relation to the three-month period. We want a longer period because we are trying to be reasonable. We are trying to draw in people to accept the law. Some Conservative Members do not want to be reasonable, but we are trying to persuade people to respond reasonably to the legislation that is going through the House.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: I accept what the Minister has said in good faith, but I ask him in good faith, as he has signed the declaration that the Bill is human rights compliant, if we find subsequently that it is not compliant, will he resign? That is what he ought to do in honour if he proves to be wrong, given what he has just stated. He might well find that he is wrong, but the courts will, no doubt, be asked to adjudicate on that matter.
A number of other points were made about the timing. The Minister is right: one of the reasons why the Government are doing this is to try to appear reasonable, but whether hunting is banned tomorrow or in 18 months' time makes no difference whatsoever to my constituents. They will protest in every possible way that they can, and, provided that it is lawful, I will support them in that effort every inch of the way, until the day when people are not allowed to hunt.
The measure is purely cynical. Why will the ban on hunting have a different commencement date from that on coursing? The only reason is that there are many more people involved in hunting than coursing, so hunting is more politically sensitive than coursing.
Mr. Tom Harris:
The hon. Gentleman told the House that he would support any legal protest that his
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1401
constituents chose to mount in the run-up to the final end of fox hunting. Will he support the people outside the House who tonight are saying that they will break that law after it comes into effect?
Mr. Clifton-Brown: I chose my words carefully because I knew that a Labour Member would intervene on me to make precisely that point, and having chosen my words carefully I have my thought processes in order. Of course I could not possibly support anyone who was thinking about breaking the law. I could understand it, but that is a different matter. I understand people who feel so passionately about the matter that they may well break the law. I do not support that in any way, but I understand that it may well happen.
Will the Minister tell us the likely cost of policing a ban? Certain police forces have a budget line for doing that, so he should know what the cost would be. He should not reiterate his earlier nonsense that the Association of Chief Police Officers thinks that it will cost no more than policing the anti-hunt protests at present, but he should ask the chief constable of Gloucestershire because I am absolutely certain that he would receive a different answer.
Alun Michael: The hon. Gentleman calls my comments into question, yet the assessment was not mine, but that of the chief constable who acts as the spokesman on these issues for ACPO. I have discussed the matter on several occasions with a variety of chief constables and they take a careful and considered view. The formal view that was made public last week was that the cost of policing a ban on hunting would be roughly equivalent to the costs of policing the protests that continue at present because of the existence of hunting.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: I am grateful to the Minister and understand that he was citing ACPO earlier. Time alone will tell whether the assessment is right or wrong.
I wish to address one or two practical issues in the short time available to me. Some Labour Members have been hunting once or twice and think that they know everything about it, and several spoke about the future of hounds. I have hunted all my life and know a thing or two about hounds. A great deal of space is required if one is to look after them. Their temperament is such that they do not make house pets, so it will be difficult to find homes for them. Homes will be found for some of them, and the more the better because I would like to preserve as many hounds as possible. Someone who loves nature and animals would naturally want as many hounds to be preserved as possible. The hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Mr. Cawsey) has spoken to all these so-called experts, but I can tell him and the Minister that whether hunting is banned in three or 18 months, many thousands of hounds will have to be destroyed as a direct result of the measure—there is no doubt about that.
Labour Members have talked about the alternative of drag hunting, but I know as someone who has hunted all his life—my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson) also made this clear—that drag hunting is no substitute for fox hunting because it is totally different. The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Foster) said that
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1402
he was put where the fox happened to be when he went out with the Worcestershire hounds, but I suspect that that happened by pure chance. Foxes are wild creatures that do not necessarily run over the same places. However, a drag hunt requires a trail to be laid over specific land. Many farmers will not allow drag hunts to go over their land because of the damage to land that they can cause. Fox hunts can damage land, but farmers allow them to take place because they control foxes.
8.41 pm
Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): My hon. Friend the Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown), whom it is a pleasure to follow, said that monumental and staggering levels of ignorance have been displayed today. There has been talk of barbarism and unacceptable animal cruelty, but all hunting takes place on private land and the hunts have permission from landowners and farmers. Are Labour Members really saying that those landowners and farmers would give the hunters permission to go across their land if the act was so cruel and barbaric? Of course they would not.
The Bill will not save the life of one single fox, hare or stag. In fact, we well know that the number of foxes killed on the roads far exceeds the number killed by hunts. The same is true of hares. Representing a Norfolk constituency, as I do, that has a pack of hounds and large shooting estates, I know from talking to keepers that the shooting and snaring of foxes is far more cruel than the hunting of foxes. There has never been a case of a fox going away wounded from a pack of hounds, but we all know that many foxes go away wounded from rifle shots or spend a long time suffering a slow, lingering death in a snare.
I was talking to a keeper the other day who was on the demonstration this afternoon. He is under instructions from his employer to control and snare foxes. He told me that the fox in a snare is humanely dispatched most times, but not always. Sometimes a snare gets dislodged and the fox suffers a long, lingering death.
Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) (Con): The New Forest used to have a deer hunt—the New Forest buckhounds. As a consequence of no longer having that hunt, the forest can support a much lower deer population than it previously did. The buckhounds never killed many deer, but they dispersed the deer population throughout the forest. Now, the deer congregate as far away from the tourists as they can, in those areas where the Forestry Commission estimates they do the most damage. It therefore culls far more than it used to. As a result, the deer population is much smaller than it was.
Mr. Bellingham: My hon. Friend is right and has a great deal of knowledge on the subject. One could add the case of Exmoor to his example. The hunting of stags on Exmoor maintains a balance in the population. Farmers do not go out and shoot stags on Exmoor. However, if hunting is banned, they will shoot those stags because they can get quite a lot of money for the carcase.
I believe the Countryside Alliance and the Exmoor hunting groups when they say that if hunting is banned, the red deer population on Exmoor will be in peril.
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1403
There are estates in my constituency that maintain a balance in the fox population. They do not kill every fox because they maintain a balance between fox hunting by the local hounds and the shooting interest. If hunting is banned, many of those farms and estates will shoot and control every single fox.
The same applies to hares. I was talking to a landowner in my constituency who uses her farm for regular meets of the local hare coursing club. As a consequence, she employs a full-time keeper to preserve the habitat. She has made it clear that if hare coursing is banned, there will be a free-for-all. The hares will be controlled—they will be shot—and there will be very few left. That is the law of unintended consequences.
| Next Section | Index | Home Page |