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Mr. Swayne: The key point is that the habitat will be lost. Would the hare have survived modern intensive farming methods were it not for a sport that has preserved its habitat, which is available not just to hares but to all wildlife?
Mr. Bellingham: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, although I will not digress, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because you would rightly call me to order.
One of the points that has been completely overlooked by the Labour Members who have spoken in the debate is the contribution of country sports to habitat and to the countryside more widely. One of the saddest things of all is that it is the country people who pursue these sports who have been most vociferous and vocal in maintaining that habitat, and in protecting the countryside and preventing the spread of concrete and planning.
I want to say a word or two about drag hunting because I believe that I am the only person in the House who has been a master of a pack of drag hounds. I therefore know a bit about drag hunting. Far fewer hounds are used in a drag pack and it is a totally different type of sport, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cotswold pointed out. A drag hunt is conducted at a furious pace; it is completely unsuitable for young children. It is also unsuitable for qualifying point-to-pointers and national hunt horses, a point that has been completely overlooked. Those horses have to qualify with hunts; they will not be able to do that with drag hunts. Again, ignorance comes into play—people just do not understand the full consequences of an outright ban. Furthermore, what good is drag hunting to all the thousands of people who follow hunting on foot or in their car? For them, hunting is a way of life and a form of recreation that means a great deal to them.
On a number of occasions when I was master of Cambridge University drag hounds, the hounds, who were all drafted in from foxhound packs, followed their natural instinct, which was to go off following a hare or a fox when they could. Obviously, if we were pursuing a drag hunt across farmers' land, with their permission, the masters of the hunt tried to stop the hounds going after hares or foxes, but sometimes that was impossible. What will happen under the Bill if the hounds from a hunt that has rebranded as a drag hunt accidentally chase foxes or hares? Will the Home Secretary's CCTV cameras on hunt routes pick that up? Obviously that has not been thought through in any way.
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1404
As many of my colleagues have said, this is a sickening, squalid little Bill. We are seeing an abuse of Parliament. It is outrageous that the Bill is not being properly debated. There are many complex clauses and schedules on many different issues, not least on exempt hunting, and the Bill should go into Committee for proper debate, but it will not. There are many anomalies. I asked earlier whether it would be in order for hunts to rebrand as rabbit packs, and apparently it would be in order for all foxhound, harrier and beagle packs to do that. Are we really saying that there is any less cruelty to rabbits when they are hunted by hounds than there is to hares or foxes? What is the difference except that one animal is slightly smaller?
Lembit Öpik: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Bellingham: No; I want to bring my remarks to a conclusion.
The Prime Minister has said on several occasions that he feels very strongly about the divisions in society. He tells us that he wants to heal those divisions, to stand up for minorities and to protect minority interests. It is very sad that this House is following in the footsteps of the last Government to ban hunting completely—the Scottish Parliament did not introduce a complete ban—which was the Nazi Government in 1935. That Government persecuted minorities; this Government are also persecuting a minority.
8.50 pm
Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): I will not attempt to follow my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Norfolk (Mr. Bellingham) in that last remark or in his expertise in hunting, both drag and otherwise.
In the few moments that I have, I ask the House to be a bit pragmatic. This has been a very sad day for Parliament, as I explained in my speech on the procedure motion. Since then, it has become much sadder. [Interruption.] Labour Members who are making those noises should have some regard for people with whom they do not agree. I was as appalled by what happened in this Chamber this afternoon, and as vociferous in my condemnation of it, as any other Member on either side of the House—probably more so. Those thoughtless young men performed a terrible disservice to the cause of the countryside which they sought to espouse. There are wider implications, and those of us in the House who are concerned with our security will have to consider those things.
Similarly, the very few people in Parliament square who set off firecrackers and frightened police horses should know better, because they of all people should know how to handle horses. I spoke to those people. I do not flinch at all in my condemnation of the tactics of the few. However, I put it to hon. Members who condemn hunting—they may be perfectly sincere in that; it is not my job to impugn motives—that the vast majority of people in Parliament square this afternoon were decent, law-abiding people whom we would all be proud to have as constituents, whether we agree with them or not.
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1405
The Bill has had its Second Reading, will have its Third Reading with a large majority, and will then go to the House of Lords having hardly been considered in this place. We are in effect signing a death sentence on the jobs of many of our constituents. We are also decreeing that a way of life that has been honoured in this country for centuries should come to an end.
I think that there is a degree of cynicism in the motives for the delay. Despite that, I urge hon. Friends who spoke against it to think again. In an impassioned and rather intolerant speech about the countryside, my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale)—he is not here now—said that this is all about not having hounds destroyed before the general election. I do not want them to be destroyed before the general election, after it or at any other time. [Interruption.] I wish that hon. Members would listen carefully. I do not want hunting to come to an end, but I am being entirely pragmatic and honest. I believe in the old motto that while there is life, there is hope. At the lowest level, even if the ban comes to pass at the end of July 2006, those whose lives are affected will have had some chance to make plans and adjust, and the police will have had some chance to decide on how to deal with the measure when it becomes law.
However, I believe passionately in the countryside way of life and I want to go on fighting and, therefore, I do not want hunting to be banned by the time we go—as we almost certainly will—to the country next year. I want it to be a general election issue because I want the voters in my constituency and every rural constituency in particular—I accept that many urban people support hunting, too—to have the chance to vote for a party that is pledged to repeal the measure before it has come into effect. [Interruption.] Yes, I do. If we allow the amendment that the hon. Member for West Ham (Mr. Banks) tabled to go through—I would have preferred the Government's proposal for two years—we give people a chance to think again, and an opportunity to those for whom we purport to speak to have their say.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend, East (Sir Teddy Taylor) told me this afternoon that he would like a referendum on hunting. I do not believe that that is necessarily practical, although I can see the superficial attraction of such an idea. However, I want the people of this country to have the opportunity to vote in the general election in the knowledge of what would happen. The general election will not be a single issue election—no general election ever is. We made the mistake in the previous election of believing that a single issue could dominate; it cannot and will not. However, hunting will be an important issue, especially in rural constituencies, and I want it to be an issue before the ban has been effected.
I therefore urge my hon. Friends who believe that we are discussing only a gesture—
It being three hours after commencement of proceedings on the motion, Mr. Deputy Speaker proceeded to put the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [this day].
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1406
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 342, Noes 15.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baker, Norman
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barrett, John
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, rh Margaret
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Bennett, Andrew
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, rh David
Boateng, rh Paul
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Burnside, David
Burstow, Paul
Byrne, Liam (B'ham Hodge H)
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Caborn, rh Richard
Cairns, David
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Carmichael, Alistair
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chaytor, David
Chidgey, David
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Jean
Cotter, Brian
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom (Tooting)
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drown, Ms Julia
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Farrelly, Paul
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gidley, Sandra
Gill, Parmjit Singh
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hancock, Mike
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Heath, David
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Holmes, Paul
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCartney, rh Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
McFall, rh John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
Mackay, rh Andrew
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, rh Michael
Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, rh John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Pugh, Dr. John
Purchase, Ken
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Rendel, David
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Adrian
Sarwar, Mohammad
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shipley, Ms Debra
Short, rh Clare
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh John
Squire, Rachel
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:
Margaret Moran and
Paul Clark
NOES
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Llwyd, Elfyn
Plaskitt, James
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Sheerman, Barry
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Andrew Robathan and
Mr. Gerald Howarth
Question accordingly agreed to.
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1408
Main Question, as amended, put:—
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