---

Mr. Hawkins: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Hood: No. I am sorry; I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me.

Measures proposed include the definition of fundamental guarantees, the conditions of the admissibility of evidence and strengthening the protection of victims. The Commission calls for a coherent crime policy to enable the European Union to fight serious crime effectively and for action to define fixed-minimum penalties for certain offences.

Mr. Cash: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Hood: In a moment.

The Commission also calls for a European public prosecutor's office to be created from Eurojust. On the European public prosecutor, the Government say:

"We support strong action to tackle fraud against the Union's interests. But any role of a European Public Prosecutor in this area is dependent on our agreement. We will not agree to anything that is not in the national interest."

On minimum standards, the Government have

"reservations about the statement that mutual recognition requires a common base of shared principles and minimum standards, which suggests that criminal procedural law measures are a pre-condition for mutual recognition."

Mr. Cash: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Hood: I will in a moment.

Mr. Cash: We have not got many moments.

Mr. Hood: In a moment.

The European Scrutiny Committee emphasises that the principle of mutual recognition does not necessitate uniformity of procedural or substantive law. We regard

"such uniformity both as unnecessary and as prejudicial to the integrity of the different legal systems of the Member States."

The Committee is concerned by the implications of the Commission's view that it is necessary to avoid a situation where each member state has separate legal regimes for disputes with cross-border implications and for purely internal disputes.

Mr. Cash: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Hood: Yes, I certainly will, briefly.

Mr. Cash: I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I should have liked to say much more, but I shall keep it to some simple points. First, the European Scrutiny Committee has condemned the proposals. That is basically what the report boils down to. Secondly, when the vote takes place, I hope that hon.
 
14 Oct 2004 : Column 465
 
Members who have contributed to the report will follow me into the Lobby. Thirdly, in 1967, the then Labour Government said:

"Nothing in Community law would . . . materially affect the general principles of our criminal law . . . "—

and the same was repeated in 1975. In a nutshell, the fact is that, as the Leader of the Opposition said at the Conservative party conference:

"Politicians . . . have made promises they have failed to keep."

This is about the existing treaties, and those treaties must be renegotiated, repealed and amended.

Mr. Hood: For my sins and for reasons better known to some higher authority, I am rather fond of the hon. Gentleman. He served on the European Scrutiny Committee before me, and I have served on that Committee for 17 years. I always leave him to make his own points, even though I do not necessarily understand them too clearly.

The Committee's report says:

"We draw attention to the danger that measures which are ostensibly concerned with mutual recognition will have the effect of creating uniform rules which will then apply to all cases, whether they have any cross-border implications or not. As we have commented before, Commission proposals on the 'area of freedom security and justice' have appeared to treat this 'area' as synonymous with a unitary State, with only one legal system. We do not believe that there is any treaty basis for such an approach, or that it complies with the principle of subsidiarity. If Parliament has not chosen to unify the separate legal systems of England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, we see no justification for this being attempted by the European Union."

Angus Robertson: I agree with every word that the hon. Gentleman has said until now. Is he concerned that the explanatory memorandum on that very issue—he notes the important separate legal systems—has had no input from the Scottish Executive, as noted in the paper itself?

Mr. Hood: I accept the point that the hon. Gentleman makes and has made on previous occasions. Indeed, the report covers that issue as well.

In trying to reach my conclusion, I wish to say that the Commission's proposals include strengthening the role of Europol, including giving Europol some powers of investigation, extending the work of the European police college and creating a legal framework to improve the sharing of intelligence between enforcement authorities and possibly making Europol a Union agency, financed from the Community budget.

Mr. Davidson: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Hood: No, I am sorry. I will try to be fair.

The Commission's proposals include counter-terrorism activity, including the creation of an information exchange centre, action to combat the financing of terrorism, and action in the fight against serious crime, such as public-private partnerships. The European Scrutiny Committee recognises the possible
 
14 Oct 2004 : Column 466
 
benefits of further co-operation between member states and improved exchanges of information—

It being one and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Madam Deputy Speaker put the Question, pursuant to Standing Order No. 16.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 115, Noes 277.

Division No. 260 [2:49 pm


AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Barker, Gregory
Baron, John (Billericay)
Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)
Bellingham, Henry
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cran, James (Beverley)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Evans, Nigel
Fallon, Michael
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Francois, Mark
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Grieve, Dominic
Hammond, Philip
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Hendry, Charles
Hermon, Lady
Hogg, rh Douglas
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Jack, rh Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Mates, Michael
Maude, rh Francis
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paterson, Owen
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Roe, Dame Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, David
Selous, Andrew
Shepherd, Richard
Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)
Soames, Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Tredinnick, David
Trimble, rh David
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, John
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Wilshire, David
Wright, Iain (Hartlepool)
Young, rh Sir George

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Hugo Swire and
Mr. John Randall


NOES

Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allan, Richard
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Austin, John
Bailey, Adrian
Barnes, Harry
Barrett, John
Battle, John
Beard, Nigel
Bennett, Andrew
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blizzard, Bob
Borrow, David
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Bruce, Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Burstow, Paul
Byers, rh Stephen
Byrne, Liam (B'ham Hodge H)
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Cairns, David
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Darling, rh Alistair
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Don (Bath)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hancock, Mike
Hanson, David
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Heath, David
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Heppell, John
Heyes, David
Hodge, Margaret
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Linton, Martin
Love, Andrew
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCafferty, Chris
McCartney, rh Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
McFall, rh John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Meacher, rh Michael
Merron, Gillian
Miller, Andrew
Mole, Chris
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Morris, rh Estelle
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
Olner, Bill
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Rendel, David
Robertson, Angus (Moray)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Salmond, Alex
Salter, Martin
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheridan, Jim
Shipley, Ms Debra
Short, rh Clare
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Soley, Clive
Spellar, rh John
Squire, Rachel
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Younger-Ross, Richard


Tellers for the Noes:

Joan Ryan and
Mr. Tom Watson


Question accordingly negatived.

 
14 Oct 2004 : Column 469
 

Main Question put:—

---