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Mr. Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): Like many hon. Members, I was moved and horrified by the speech of the hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson)—moved because we all share his heartfelt wish that the terrible recent shooting in Nottingham acts as a turning point for the local community, and horrified by the picture he painted of daily life in parts of Nottingham, especially for young people. It is terrifying that 12 and 13-year-olds have become inured to becoming drug carriers.

In the course of the debate, we have heard many facts and figures about the national scene, many of which have been disputed. I shall give a local snapshot to illustrate the reality on the streets of the statistics, and contrast my constituency experience with that of hon. Members on both sides of the House, including the hon. Gentleman. By timely chance, I spent Saturday night doing what I am sure many hon. Members do regularly: I spent the night patrolling with my local police. Much of what I experienced throws light on issues that are often discussed in terms of national statistics.

To put my comments in their proper context and to contrast them with those that we have heard about Nottingham, let me say that if my speech sounds like a report from the front line, it should not. My constituency, Ashford, is part urban, part rural, and extremely prosperous. The unemployment rate is less than 2 per cent. and the area is fast growing. Precisely because so many people have moved into the area, the facilities available, especially the night-time entertainment facilities for the sort of young people who often get involved in low-level disorder, are much better than they were 10 years ago. Although there are pockets of deprivation, the background is broadly peaceful and prosperous. If any part of the country ought not to be suffering the sort of violent crime, disorder and drug problems that the debate is about, it is Ashford. Given all that, some of my experiences on Saturday night are instructive and very worrying.

Having travelled less than 200 yd from the police station in the centre of Ashford, our police van was flagged down. We saw three men: one was lying on the ground, blood pouring from several wounds in his head; the other two were able to stand but they, too, were bleeding from various wounds. It turned out that they had been attacked by another local gang using metal pipes or baseball bats. Whatever had led to the attack—there might be charges, so I cannot give all the details that I know—it was not a drunken punch-up. It took place relatively early in the evening and was not a traditional fight: serious weapons were used and serious injuries inflicted. At the same time—7.30 on Saturday night in a peaceful and prosperous town—another patrol had to leave the station at the same time as us to investigate the smashing of every window on the ground floor of a house in central Ashford, and the spraying of CS gas into that house to act as a form of intimidation.

As I said, that all took place before 8 pm in a largely peaceful, medium-sized town. In many ways, that is the real world background to our debate. I am giving anecdotal, not statistical, evidence, but several issues thrown up in the course of that Saturday's evening patrol are directly relevant to the introductory speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis), particularly the issue of guns
 
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and knives. Several hon. Members have discussed the remarks of Mr. Paul Evans about whether we should be more worried about gun or knife crime on our streets. The answer clearly is that we should be worried about both, and I am sure that the Minister is. Statistically, there are far more knife crimes than gun crimes, but if gun crime is increasing she, I am sure, will be extremely worried.

In the context of our discussion about Nottingham, it is interesting to relay the views of the Ashford police who, thankfully, say that there is not a gun culture in the town or in that part of Kent. There are serious drug dealers who carry guns, but the problem is not nearly as prevalent as it is in other towns and cities. Knives, however, have been a growing problem for some years. Kent police are a good, proactive force, and they have a strategy for dealing with the problem. Their basic method involves the proactive use of stop-and-search, which, they assure me, works. The word is out on the streets, so that people who a few years ago thought it fashionable to carry knives, know that they are taking a big risk if they do so in Ashford. If a police car goes past, officers are likely to get out and stop and search such individuals. The net result is a reduction in the use of knives in and around the town, so such policing works.

Similarly, the police use a stop-and-search technique to attack known drug dealers in the locality, and they find it very effective. One of the strongest points that I absorbed from my evening patrolling was that they are extremely worried that the Government's extra demands will discourage such activities. If they are required to fill in forms every time they stop someone, let alone stop and search them, they are worried that young constables who are being trained will never get into the habit of using stop-and-search properly. They will be deterred from doing part of their job which the police know is effective in helping to stamp out the type of violent crime that we are debating. In addition, it will be more difficult to obtain intelligence.

I part company from my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Mr. Hawkins), who made an excellent speech, but appeared to decry the concept of intelligence-led policing, which was pioneered by the Kent force and has proved effective in many ways. The police say that without intelligence they cannot operate effectively against the most serious criminals. One of the best ways of gathering intelligence is to be out on the streets, constantly stopping people and talking to them. I hope that Ministers will take heed of the message that anything that deters police from undertaking such activities will probably lead to a net increase in violence.

Many hon. Members have spoken about young people on the streets. My information is that it is now quite usual in Ashford to find children as young as five out on their own after dark, which I find appalling. Such behaviour is standard for teenagers. At about 10.55 pm, just before most pubs turned out their clientele, we came across two young boys outside the local video stop on the high street. When we stopped and asked them whether they were waiting for someone to come out of the shop, they said no, they had just been in there on their own. They both lived about a mile away and were just hanging around the high street at 11 o'clock on a Saturday night. It was another sign of the effectiveness of proactive police intervention that, having been talked to and told to go home by the police, they both walked
 
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off. We followed them in the police van and they went home. The Minister will be relieved to hear that I do not propose to hold the Government responsible for the fact that teenage boys think it reasonable to be out on their own, but if we rely on the police to try to deal with such problems—frankly, we should rely on parents rather than the police—anything such as form-filling that keeps them off the streets is a bad thing.

The subject of drugs is clearly central to much of our discussion. I agree with many points made by Members on both sides of the House, and shall merely add a wry observation. A poster on the wall at Ashford police station reminds officers that cannabis is still illegal, and that they can still arrest people for possession. The existence of such a poster in a police station suggests that it is not just teenagers who are confused about whether or not cannabis is illegal. If police officers who deal with the problem have to be told that it is, Ministers are deluding themselves if they think that they have not sent out mixed messages on cannabis. As a society, we need to resolve the debate. If cannabis is still illegal—and it is—that message needs to be spelled out much more clearly.

Returning to the issue of stop-and-search, during the evening we came across known local drug dealers. Officers jumped out of the van and stopped and searched them. No one was found to have anything on them, but the technique of disrupting the lives of known serious drug dealers is an extremely effective way of keeping a lid on the drug problem. Again, if Ministers make decisions that make it more difficult for the police to conduct such searches, they should reverse them. The increased paperwork that the police must undertake when they stop people and the ambiguity of the drugs message are two examples of the way in which Government policy has reduced the effectiveness of local police, who are conscientious, hard-working and intelligent.

I move on to the statistical facts. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. McCabe) said that he wished to deal only in real facts and figures, so I shall please him by quoting from Home Office figures, which I hope those on the Government Front Bench will not challenge. The Kent recorded crime statistics show that violence against the person was up 11.7 per cent. between 2003 and 2004, and sexual offences were up 7 per cent.

Mr. McCabe: I am not in any sense disputing the figures that the hon. Gentleman quotes, but would I be right to think that violence against the person includes domestic violence cases, on which the police have been instructed to take a tougher line?


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