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Mr. Gerald Howarth: My right hon. Friend is entirely right. The Minister will say it anyway, so I shall say it first: the legacy issue was not dealt with by the previous Conservative Government, but the number of people involved is declining all the time. It is time to recognise those members of the armed forces pension scheme who served their country and got married later in life.

There is a well recognised precedent in this House that we try to put right unfairnesses and injustices for which the resources previously have remained unavailable. We believe that those resources should be made available, and we are prepared to commit them in this matter.

We see no reason why a gesture to the most vulnerable among the post-retirement widows need have any effect on the wider public services. The Government admit that the armed forces are unique; their members and their families should be treated as such. With so many of those covered by the amendment being widows of second world war veterans, it would be an entirely justified and magnanimous gesture to make in the 60th anniversary year of the end of the war, regaining the Government some of the trust they have lost among the ex-service community.

We accept that there is no particular reason why the post-retirement marriage amendment should appear in the Bill; little else does. We accept that it is essentially a legacy issue and falls outside the auspices of the new armed forces pension and compensation scheme. However, the plight of the most vulnerable post-retirement widows cannot be simply brushed to one side.

The Opposition have made a commitment to seek some kind of provision for those widows. We will, therefore, not seek to take this amendment further if the Minister is prepared to give a commitment now to make provision for the most vulnerable widows, along the lines of the amendment, outside the new scheme. The Minister has already given various commitments to the House today that while not in the form of legislation, are nevertheless binding commitments on the Government. If the Minister wishes to make that commitment now, I shall be happy to give way to him.

Answer came there none. I am sorry about that, because I am trying to find a compromise. If the Government refuse to be magnanimous and make a small cash commitment to some of the most vulnerable
 
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who have been overlooked for many years, we shall seek to press the amendment to a vote. The Minister can be assured that the issue will return when it has been considered in the other place. I am sorry that the Minister is unwilling to compromise. I have made what I consider to be an overwhelming case and it is time we took action and acted magnanimously. I hope that the House will support the amendment.

Rachel Squire: The Defence Committee sees the amendment as contentious, and I understand that it was passed in the other place by only one vote. The amendment would have a retrospective effect. Before 1978, service personnel were unable to accrue pension entitlements for widows or widowers except when marriage occurred before or during service. The amendment would extend the right to a widow's pension to wives, husbands and registered unmarried partners of service personnel, even if the marriage took place after the service person had left the armed forces, as long as it occurred before they reached the age of 60.

The amendment would also increase the rate of post-retirement widow's pension for those widows and widowers who currently receive a post-retirement pension based only on that part of their spouse's service after the changes were made. It would improve the benefits of unmarried partners who presently receive benefits only if the death of their partner is due to service.

I am aware that the Government opposed the amendment in the other place because of the cost of some £50 million and because it is wrong in principle for laws to have a retrospective effect. The Government are also concerned that a change for the armed forces might require similar, and much more expensive, change for the rest of the public sector. I have heard estimates of between £300 million and £500 million. We are all aware of successive Governments' opposition to making improvements to public service pension schemes retrospective, and I have been made aware of possible considerable ill-feeling if the widow of a serviceman received some retrospective benefit and was treated more favourably than the widow of a fireman or a policeman. However, the Defence Committee and many other hon. Members think that our armed forces deserve particular treatment because of the commitment they give, including possibly risking their lives in the service of our country.

3.15 pm

Like the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth), I have received strong representation on this issue from the Forces Pension Society. This year we have been remembering the 60th anniversary of the Normandy landings and next year we will remember the 60th anniversary of the end of the second world war, so I hope that the Government will consider a compromise on these issues, especially for the 75-plus age group and those linked to the veterans of that war.

Mr. Gummer: The subject of the amendment is easily made into an emotive issue and, in a sense, is none the worse for that. As the hon. Member for Dunfermline,
 
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West (Rachel Squire) said, we are talking about a group of the population whom we have asked to do something very special that is different from anything that we ask of anyone else. Given that we are—in my view, wrongly—at war, it is a good time for us to think about this issue.

Throughout my time in Parliament I have taken up several relevant cases, and I am sorry that previous Conservative Governments were not able to put the matter right. I have always found it unacceptable that widows of service people who marry another service person should lose entitlement to the pension of their first spouse without gaining entitlement to the pension of the second. That is not a generous approach. I commend the concept of generosity to the Minister. I have been frank in saying that it was a pity that previous Governments, of whom I was a member, were not generous enough. If I am willing to say that, perhaps the Minister will be willing to be more generous.

The amendment provides an opportunity to do something that is, frankly speaking, a matter of common decency for those who, in later life, have provided the companionship that has been denied to a serviceman through the death of his original wife. We do not say that those people should receive extra compensation or special treatment, but that they should receive what reasonable people might think was theirs by right.

There is no need for a read-across from this provision to other areas. It never has been true that we have allowed our treatment of the servicemen and women, to whom we owe so much, to be prayed in aid in other cases. The Government have a particular reason for accepting the amendment. At this very moment, they have decided or are about to decide—depending on which version one believes—to ask yet more of service personnel by extending their tour of duty and making them more vulnerable by putting them in the line of fire. It is not unreasonable, therefore, to see what we can do to recognise the special role that the armed forces play.

I understand that there is not much money around. I can think of many examples of the Government's policies and programmes from which they could find some money, but I would incur your wrath, Madam Deputy Speaker, were I to explore that issue. That is why we have not been ambitious in our request that the Government do the right thing.

Mr. Gerald Howarth: The official Opposition have done our sums and we calculate that we can provide a 10 per cent. uplift in defence expenditure—a £2.7 billion increase for our armed forces over two years. My right hon. Friend says that we should be able to afford the measure; we will be able to afford it.

Mr. Gummer: My hon. Friend makes an important point, which I put in this context. The Government make the amazing argument that all their expenditure is perfect, inviolable and properly directed and that no other expenditure can possibly be accepted due to the enormous responsibilities they have taken on. That is an incredible position for any Government, but especially for this Government because we can see just how much wastage there is throughout the system. However, we are not dealing with that but with a principle—whether the proposal is right.
 
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I am worried about the amendment, as I think it would be right to go the whole hog. That is the moral demand placed on us by our forces. I have always made that argument, so I do not suggest for a moment that I have changed my mind simply because we are in opposition. I held that view as a Minister and I am only sorry that I was neither in a position, nor had the clout, to insist on it taking place. I am now trying again.

I suggest to those who have been especially dependent on our forces and have put them in a position in Iraq that is wholly unacceptable—I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) does not agree, but that is my view—that they really should do something. What could be better than to say to our troops currently fighting in the very questionable circumstances in which the Government have placed them that, in addition to the vast sum of money—unnecessary money in my view—that we are expending, we are spending that small sum on people who served our country in so signal a way? That is the least we can do.

If the Under-Secretary says that we cannot afford to do that, my reply will be that we are able to afford every pound that we spend in Iraq, even though we should not be there. We should not be spending that money and we were misled into that position, so the least he can do is to spend a bit on these proposals. That is where he should spend the money; on those who cannot speak for themselves and who deserve it. I hope that he will do it—[Interruption.] It is all right for the Minister of State to mumble under his breath; he has a very heavy price to pay. Most members of his party know that. Some of us knew at the time, and more and more of us—

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