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Mr. Adrian Flook (Taunton) (Con): I agree completely with the hon. Gentleman's last point, but one of the arguments for scarring the Somerset countryside that campaigners for wind farms advance is that turbines will stay up only for 25 years, which is exactly what my local Friends of the Earth members said when I met them on Friday. Does he agree that we must treat with a huge amount of scepticism the notion that any, or many, or those wind turbines will come down after 25 years?
Norman Baker: I have no idea. In a sense, once a wind turbine has been put in place and is delivering, it should carry on for the rest of its operational life. It seems stupid to remove something that is operating satisfactorily. I am not sure that I understand the basis of the question.
The results of a Greenpeace survey are interesting—hon. Members may say that it has a vested interest, but it commissioned an independent study, and I am not sure whether the Minister was referring to it or to a different study. National polling survey fieldwork carried out for Greenpeace on 25 and 26 August suggested that 79 per cent. of the population were in favour of the development of wind farms in the UK generally, and 69 per cent. were in favour of the development of a wind farm in their area. There is not the huge opposition to wind farms that has been reported. Interestingly, in the south-east, which is perhaps one of the most concentrated areas of population in the country, support for wind farms is strongest.
Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): On that point, will my hon. Friend join me in complimenting the Ford motor company on having recently erected two wind turbines on its Dagenham site, which are close to where the energy is needed and do not need huge pylons to take the energy into the grid? Does he agree that there may be other sites on industrial estates that could be equally attractive for this purpose?
Norman Baker: I absolutely agree. Indeed, Lewes district council, which the hon. Member for South Suffolk was keen to rubbish inaccurately earlier, is exploring the possibility of a wind turbine to power its own needs. We need to get more wind turbines locally, for the reasons I have given. If we do, we will have less environmental impact and more community support for such developments.
Richard Ottaway: One of the problems with wind farms is intermittency. Onshore, the electricity is not available 70 per cent. of the time; offshore, 50 per cent. of the time. What is the hon. Gentleman proposing to back up wind farms once they reach critical mass?
Norman Baker:
I have already suggested that a wide range of renewable sources should be used and that energy needs should be cut through energy efficiency. No doubt we will use gas as a bridge. In the very long term, if we have not found some alternative solution, say from hydrogen, we will have to go back to coal, which
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I hope by that time will have been cleaned up. That would be my way forward, rather than nuclear power. Coal is not currently usable in big quantities because of the carbon problems, but who knows what scientists may do in terms of clean coal technology? If we are able to develop clean coal technology and export it to countries such as China, that will make more of a difference to climate change than almost anything else we could do, reducing emissions elsewhere in the world.
I need to refer to the Liberal Democrat record on the matter, because inaccurate statements are made regularly by the hon. Member for South Suffolk in particular, which I cannot let go by. He has put on the record his position. He told the Tory party conference:
"Take a look at Lib Dem-controlled Lewes. There the council have banned solar power. I am not kidding."
I do not know whether he has a dictionary to examine the definition of the word "banned", but the official figures are that between 1999 and 2003—I referred to it earlier—the council approved 11 applications for solar panels and rejected four. That hardly seems to constitute a ban.
Mr. Gray: It was 13 out of 18 applications, was it not?
Norman Baker: Three applications were withdrawn, making 18 in all. I am happy to send Conservative Members a copy of the figures, so that they are better informed next time they speak on the issue.
The hon. Member for South Suffolk said on 16 September 2003:
"It is almost impossible to find a specific proposal for an onshore wind farm that the Liberal Democrats locally are prepared to support."
I can give him lots of examples of areas where we have supported wind farms. My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. Reid), for example, and the Liberal Democrat Member of the Scottish Parliament, George Lyon, have supported one at Gigha, Scotland's first community-owned wind farm. Aberdeenshire council, which is run by a Liberal Democrat and independent coalition, has supported the Clashindarroch Forest project and the Vale of White Horse project. The Lib Dems are in favour of wind farm developments at Norfolk, including the Cromer offshore scheme. The Lib Dem local council and the local Lib Dem Member there have supported that project.
I could go on. It is rubbish to say that we have opposed wind farms up and down the country. It is the Conservatives who do so. The hon. Member for South Suffolk neglected to mention that the Conservatives have a moratorium on wind farms in Scotland. That is their policy. It is not selective. It is not judging matters on their merits—it is that all wind farms must be stopped in Scotland. That is their position. George Lyon said:
"Up to 1,200 jobs in Scotland rely on the development of the wind farm industry . . . yet this young industry would be threatened if this"
"moratorium went ahead—it would be choked at birth".
Therefore, in their effort to make political points, the Conservatives are strangling development, strangling the environment and taking away jobs as well.
Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Norman Baker: No, I am going to conclude, because I have spoken for 20 minutes.
Clearly, the Conservatives are seeking to make political capital out of this. They are in favour of wind farms in principle and against them specifically, wherever they occur. They have ducked the opportunity to have a debate on climate change, which they should have had last Monday, and failing that, they should have had today. They have chosen instead to pick this topic to attack the environment by seeking to undermine renewable energy, which is one of the key ways to tackle climate change. The Conservatives have no credibility on the issue.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. The 10-minute time limit on Back-Bench speeches operates from now. Nine hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye, so there is a certain difficulty. Mutual self-restraint will, of course, be universally welcomed.
8.34 pm
Mr. Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): If the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) wants people to take the Liberal Democrats seriously in these areas, he should not say things such as that £48 billion could supply Britain's electricity needs by alternative energy. It blows the mind. Can he tell us how he would get 10 per cent. of base load electricity from renewable energy? He should take stock of that. He should also read what the Opposition's motion says. He was saying that he sort of agreed with it in a sense. The Opposition motion mentions
"the Government's policy of relying exclusively on onshore wind farms to meet its renewable targets".
That is what the hon. Gentleman believes. What about the £117 million that the Government are putting into offshore wind farm development? Should I go through the list of the tens of millions of other things into which the Government are also putting money?
I should particularly mention the £31 million towards photovoltaics. Back in the 1980s, when I was an Opposition energy spokesman and had an interest in such matters, the Conservative Government withdrew all research and development into photovoltaics. Anybody who read The Observer yesterday would know that at least this Government are giving grants to people who want to put photovoltaic tiles on their roofs, so that they can bring forward renewable energy in a sensible way. We ought to look at the history of renewable energy before we start talking and accusing the Government, because they have a good record on encouraging renewable energy.
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