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Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): There is no sanction.

Mr. Heald: As my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) says from a sedentary position, there is no sanction on the Government, and it is not right for a Bill to reach the end of its progress through the House without all its significant aspects and issues having been examined and debated.

The Modernisation Committee, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) criticised, admits in its first report of the 2002–03 Session that

"concern about the volume of legislation which passes undebated is entirely legitimate".

At that time, of course, the Committee was chaired not by the Leader of the House but by his predecessor, but I am sure that if the current Leader of the House examined the issue he would agree that large amounts of legislation should not be passed undebated. Indeed, hon. Members on both sides of the House should agree on that point, yet that is precisely what happens persistently under the current system. We only have to look at the evidence that the Clerk to the House gave to the Procedure Committee, which appears in table A on page 5, to see the sad state into which the House has
 
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fallen. With one Bill, 36 groups of amendments were not considered in Committee, and with another 105 clauses were not debated in any way. It is just not good enough for the Leader of the House to say that those provisions would not have been considered anyway.

Ms Coffey: Does the hon. Gentleman think that it would be a good idea to make comparisons with what happened to Bills before we had programming? During the 1992–97 Parliament I sat on several Standing Committees and recall that, for several reasons, a great number of clauses were not debated. It is not correct, therefore, to say that Bills have not been debated only since programming was introduced. It would be fairer if the hon. Gentleman were to make a wider comparison.

Mr. Heald: I do not accept that the Labour Opposition were as idle or useless as has been suggested. The hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) will remember the Criminal Justice Bill Committee, on which we sat for 240 hours. It is true that some Labour members of the Committee—not the Prime Minister, who, although he was on the Committee, never attended anywhere other than the Corridor—made some good points, and we agreed amendments as a result.

Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that many clauses are now thoroughly less well debated as a consequence of the liberation of Government Back Benchers, who take up time, thereby denying it to the Opposition who would effectively make points? Opposition Members are constrained from doing so as a consequence of the operation of the timetable.

Mr. Heald: Of course, were the Government to make a pincer movement, not only by proposing a tight programme but by encouraging their Back Benchers to speak at great length, they could oppress the Opposition even more than they do at present. My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) made that point in a recent Westminster Hall debate, to which I believe the Deputy Leader of the House responded.

Mr. Hain: If the structure is so tyrannical from the Opposition's point of view, why did eight of the 22 Bills that have completed their Committee stage so far this Session report early? If the Opposition were being denied the chance to scrutinise all those Bills, why did they report early? Why will the hon. Gentleman not acknowledge that the Government are well able to—and do—reconsider the out date when the need arises? We extended the out date for the Pensions Bill, for the Higher Education Bill and, more recently, for the Mental Capacity and Civil Partnership Bills, in that spirit.

Mr. Heald: If the Government want to be as constructive as the Leader of the House suggests, they could simply agree the modest amendments that my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield has tabled, which move the balance slightly in favour of the proper scrutiny of legislation. It is sad that a Government with such a large majority should have got into the way of thinking, "We are in power, so we will do things our
 
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way." I am absolutely certain that were the Leader of the House standing on this side, as he may well be in six months' time, he would be saying what I am saying. No Opposition could tolerate the way in which this Government want to operate.

Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): Is not one of the worst abuses of the timetabling system the Government's habit of tabling a huge number of amendments very late in the day, both in Committee and on Report? A notable example of such abuse occurred in the case of the Bill that became the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004. Although there were two Standing Committees, not just one, the Government still managed to table a huge chunk of amendments on Report. Moreover, there is still no timetable motion for the Report stage of the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Bill, which will take place tomorrow, because the Government have withdrawn some of the amendments that they tabled last week.

Mr. Heald: I was intending to make the same points. Indeed, we have made them week after week during business questions, as the Leader of the House must acknowledge. I have raised the question of the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Bill twice, each time asking whether we have yet received all the Government amendments. Each time the Leader of the House has said that he is anxious for there not to be too many late amendments—and then another raft of them arrives a few days before the next stage. That is no way in which to conduct the business of the House. Now we hear that even the latest batch of amendments is flawed, and the Government have had to withdraw them. No doubt we shall get another lot, and there will be another recommital. It is a shambolic way of doing business.

Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): May I raise the wider issue of changing Standing Orders? Is my hon. Friend aware that the last Conservative Government did not change any of them without the consent of the official Opposition? The last changes were, I think, the Jopling reforms. The then Prime Minister, John Major, instructed the person in charge of the negotiations—me—that no changes should be implemented unless the then official Opposition approved each and every one. Has my hon. Friend been similarly asked by the Leader of the House whether he consents to these changes?

Mr. Heald: The process has not been similar in any way.

It is a sad thing for the House that it is not possible to stand by conventions that are seen to work over time. It is a good thing if we can find ways of moving forward on matters of procedure without the ruthless arrogance that we see nowadays. The Clerk of the House has been impartial, as ever, in his evidence, and table A is an indictment of the Government, showing that thousands of issues have been ignored and have not been debated. Interest groups come to us, as the Opposition, and say "We would like this point to be aired in Committee, because we do not think the Bill will work properly unless it is considered." How must they feel when for want of time, with the fall of the knife, a matter of real concern to them falls as well?
 
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It is worth noting that the Finance Bill, which involves large amounts of money, is not dealt with in that way. It is the one exception. The Government do not guillotine it because they know that those in the City of London, the real power brokers, would not accept that for a minute.

Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab/Co-op): The hon. Gentleman is falling into a familiar Conservative trap. Basically, he is saying that doing nothing is not political. Doing nothing is just as political as changing. Doing nothing is what the Conservatives are excellent at. That is why they are Conservatives; that is why they love the status quo—

Mr. Kidney: And that is why they are in opposition.

Mr. Foulkes: Absolutely. But things have to change, things have to modernise, and the Conservative party will have to accept that. We are presenting our proposals in a reasonable, sensible way, and it is about time the Opposition looked at them in a reasonable, sensible way.

Mr. Heald: The right hon. Gentleman may have arrived too late to hear the considered remarks made earlier.

The Opposition are not standing in the way of progress. We are saying that an all-party Committee, one of the most senior in the House, dominated—like all Committees—by Labour Members, has examined the issues and taken evidence from all parts of the House and from the Clerk. A memorandum of yours, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is being considered. After all that consideration, the Committee came up with a number of modest proposals to improve programming, make it more consensual, and ensure that these matters are dealt with more sensibly. What is the Government's answer? It is no—unless it just happens to suit the Minister. Those are the only amendments that have been accepted.

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