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Mr. Forth : Does my hon. Friend see any significance in the fact that the Procedure Committee is chaired by a very senior, very experienced Member who is dedicated to the welfare of the House, whereas the so-called Modernisation Committee is chaired by a Cabinet Minister?

Mr. Heald: There may well be an imbalance between those two individuals when it comes to experience, knowledge and understanding of this place, but I do not want to discuss personalities—at least, not for a moment.

The idea that we should programme Bills 48 hours after Second Reading has one benefit. By that time, the parameters and ambit of debate are known, which is why the Committee suggested that modest change. We support it; the Government do not.

Sir Nicholas Winterton : It is important for the House to realise that we are not suggesting that there should be a debate on this. We are saying that the programme motion should be put to the House without debate 48 hours after Second Reading. Genuine discussion
 
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could take place between the Whips of all the major parties, and the House and Government would be aware of the principal concerns about a Bill.

Mr. Heald: Experience shows that that would be useful. In one of the worst examples of programming, which resulted in the sit-in involving my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe), things went wrong because the Government did not programme after Second Reading. It became obvious during Second Reading that extra amendments were needed to deal with the Huntingdon Life Sciences issue. Rather than sticking to the number of sittings that they agreed on Second Reading, the Government cut the number. It was a case of more amendments, less time.

Mr. Hain: The hon. Gentleman presents the motion as a gigantic attempt by the Government to smash all dissent from the Opposition. In fact, programme motions are tabled after discussion with the usual channels. As the statistics I have given demonstrate, the Programming Sub-Committee can modify the subsequent changes that are often made, sometimes at the suggestion—made informally—of the Chairman of the relevant Standing Committee. It has consistently done so, and as a result some out dates have been lengthened and some Bills have completed their progress early.

I understand and respect differences of opinion, but the idea that this is an oppressive Government ramming through their views is simply not correct.

Mr. Heald: What the Leader of the House forgets is that under the old arrangements, genuine discussion and negotiation took place on the amount of time that was available and necessary. Under the current arrangements, it is a case of "Take what we are offering, or we will impose it on you". The Opposition should not have to be a supplicant, begging the Government for time to do the job that our electors sent us here to do.

Mr. Swayne: I have been on Standing Committees that, although their sittings finished early, ran out of time. That is entirely possible as a consequence of the way in which knives fall. When highly contentious clauses are involved the Committee runs out of time, and then ends up with hours and hours, if not sittings and sittings, in which to discuss wholly uncontentious material.

Mr. Heald: That is an excellent point. The problem does arise.

Sir Patrick Cormack : That was a constructive observation, and my hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. Will he give us an undertaking that whatever happens today, if there were a change of Government at the next election—as we are all confident there will be—
 
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a Conservative Administration would implement the Procedure Committee's report without any amendment?

Mr. Heald: I certainly hope that it will be possible for the Opposition to include proposals in their manifesto that meet the spirit of what my hon. Friend wants.

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I apologise for not having heard all the Leader of the House's speech. May I return the hon. Gentleman to his scurrilous attack on Government Back Benchers in Standing Committees? Does he not accept that even the most loyal Back Benchers can take their role in a Standing Committee extremely seriously, and may wish to improve legislation? Indeed, some of the most effective probing of Government comes from Government Back Benchers rather than the Opposition, who are generally more interested in filibustering than in improving legislation.

Mr. Heald: That can happen.

Mr. George Mudie (Leeds, East) (Lab): I have much sympathy with the shadow Leader's argument, particularly about the programming of Bills. However, when specifically asked whether the Opposition would, if elected, accept the amendments, he said something about the spirit of the amendments, rather than about the amendments. Is that not the problem? In opposition, hon. Members say one thing, but when they get on the Government Benches they do something different.

Sir Nicholas Winterton: I will make sure they do.

Mr. Heald: I am being urged on by the Chairman of the Procedure Committee. It is possible that one might want to go even further than the Procedure Committee.

We welcome the proposal that programme motions should be decided without debate only where there is cross-party support. We believe that the Government should have to justify their programmes. I also welcome the idea to give Standing Committee Chairmen discretion to allow 15 minutes overtime for completion of debate, or to make up for time lost in a Division.

The Select Committee tried to build consensus to allow programming to continue from Parliament to Parliament. The Government should be ashamed that they turned down those modest but worthwhile ideas. They accept proposals that help them, but turn down those that help scrutiny. That is cherry-picking of the worst sort—another slap in the face for the Select Committee. Even at this late stage, will the Leader of the House not think of the interests of the House and accept the amendments?

Right hon. and hon. Members will be familiar with the experiment that has been conducted with deferred Divisions. As the House will be aware, the great objection to deferred Divisions is the dislocation that they create between the debate and the decision. They have removed the connection between decision and debate, unpicking one of the key links in parliamentary scrutiny. It makes life easier for the Government, their business managers and Back Benchers—

Mr. Forth: And the Prime Minister.
 
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Mr. Heald: It makes life easier for the Prime Minister because he needs to come here only on Wednesdays, but overall it is not in the interests of the House to have fractured debate, with the decision being made much later. One of the arguments that was always advanced for deferred Divisions was the sitting hours. People said, "It is often difficult late at night for everyone to stay and perhaps we should have the Divisions when they can be present." As we have changed the sitting hours, that argument falls by the wayside. Therefore, I ask the Leader of the House to withdraw motion 4 and to think again.

I have mixed feelings about carrying legislation over from one parliamentary Session to the next if it runs out of legislative time. It seems sensible to have the definite benefits of increased flexibility that that facility can offer to the legislative process. It can be a waste of time if Bills fall at the end of a Session and have to be reintroduced in the same form in the next. I think that there is agreement on both sides of the House that such a situation can be undesirable. However, I have reservations about a mechanism being built into the procedure whereby the discipline of an annual cut-off point is removed from Government business managers. There is a great danger that the lack of pressure could encourage even more sloppiness in the drafting, programming and timetabling of legislation. That is clearly not desirable. On balance, the House should give the benefit of the doubt to carry-over, but it should be done only with the consent of the Opposition, not imposed by the Government. That is why I will oppose motion 5 tonight.

Mr. Greg Knight: On that point, if my understanding and memory are correct, the original Standing Order provides for carry-over with the Opposition's consent. Is that not the case? Therefore, there is no need to make a change, if one accepts my hon. Friend's argument. Is he aware that in the 1997–2001 Parliament, the Opposition Chief Whip was never asked for his consent to a carry-over? Therefore, there can be no accusation that the Opposition blocked the use of the original Standing Order.

Mr. Heald: My right hon. Friend is correct to say that the understanding is that it would be possible to carry-over Bills only with the consent of the Opposition but, from my understanding and reading of the Standing Order, it does not say so. I oppose the order becoming a Standing Order under motion 5, with all the force that that implies. We may ossify the wording or entrench it, but without the commitment, which underpins it, being on the record. If the Leader of the House or deputy Leader of the House can give me assurances about that, or if I am wrong, I will be happy to think again.

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