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Mr. Forth: The hon. Gentleman will concede that, back in the 1980s and early 1990s, each Standing Committee began its consideration of legislation without a timetable. Essentially, Opposition Members were in charge of timing and could dictate the pace of proceedings. The crucial difference now is that the Government dictate and control the shape, size, timing and end date of Committees. In parliamentary terms, the balance has been altered. Formerly, the Government had the majority and the Opposition controlled the time. That has changed radically. Now, the Government have the majority and also control the time. Surely the hon. Gentleman can see the dangers in that.
Mr. Tyler: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to develop my theme, but I accept that there is validity in what he has said. However, I was a Member of this House for a very brief time in the 1970s, and I recall that I had the crucial, swing vote in the Committees on which I served because the Government of the day had no overall majority. The situation was very curious: I could determine the timetable for consideration of certain Bills in certain Committees. I do not think that that is a very clever idea either—although I was, of course, a very wise young man.
I am in favour, Mr. Deputy Speaker, of precisely what you identify in your memorandum. Good will is needed on both sides to make these proposals work, so that we can fulfil a tripartite purpose. The report states the original purpose, says what members of the Modernisation Committee looked at, and makes some recommendations. I think that it responds to the point just made by the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth).
First, there is no doubt that a Government should have reasonable opportunity and power to secure their business within a reasonable period. Effectively, it is not
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unreasonable for a Government to determine when legislative proposals leave Standing Committee, and to try and get through the House the business that they promised to the electorate in their election manifesto.
However, my point is that that depends on the Government taking a reasonable attitude to timing. When a Government introduce strings of amendments, new clauses and new schedules, as the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich described, they cannot expect that those debates can be compressed into the time scale originally set out.
Mr. Foulkes: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Tyler: I want to develop three points, and then there may be a chance for the right hon. Gentleman to contribute.
Secondly, Opposition Members and Government Back Benchers have a responsibility to prioritise the parts of particular legislation that they consider most need scrutiny. On this point, I am very much in tune with what the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich said. It is important that that prioritisation should be a matter of discussion and that members of the Opposition parties and Government Back Benchers should have a role in that decision. In a moment, I shall describe how I think that that should be done.
Thirdly, the goal must be that we end up with a better product. That is surely what we should all be trying to obtain.
Mr. Foulkes: On that specific point, ending up with a better product involves proper scrutiny. I accept that, but none of the critics—not my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), nor the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald), who spoke for the Opposition—has mentioned a major change that has taken place. I am talking about pre-legislative scrutiny. I have just taken part in a Joint Committee—comprised of Members of the Houses of Lords and of Commons—on the draft Charities Bill. We went through it paragraph by paragraph, and we have made recommendations to the Government before publication of the final Bill. Why does the hon. Gentleman not take account of that major change?
Mr. Tyler: Observers might think that that was a planted question. I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising a point that I was about to come to. We in this House are developing methods that allow Bills to be scrutinised carefully before they reach the Floor of the House. That is very valuable, but it should inform the discussion about prioritisation. It should not simply offer a carte blanche—a blank cheque—to the Government to decide how everything should be handled.
Mr. Swayne: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Tyler: No, as I want to develop my argument.
It is critical that the House consider very carefully the amendments tabled by the Procedure Committee. It is an all-party Committee with a Government majority, and its recommendations would fulfil all our objectives.
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I shall illustrate how the proposals can be developed. It is critical that those who are going to do the hard work of scrutiny in Standing Committee or on Report on the Floor of the House should have the opportunity to make decisions about priority. That should involve more than just a general discussion behind the Speaker's Chair between Whips. The people who are going to do the work of scrutiny should have the responsibility—not just the opportunity—to make that decision.
I shall give an example of that. Amendment (a) is very interesting and deals with what happens when a Bill comes back to the House on Report. This is a classic case, as no report is produced for Report stage. That is another of the misnomers that we encounter in this place. No report is produced for the House about how a Bill has been debated, handled and considered, or about what has been left out and what late amendments submitted.
I recall the Report stage of the Bill that became the Transport Act 2000, and I am sure that the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich will recall it too, as she was a key participant in the discussions at that time. I do not want to reveal any terrible secrets, but I remember that a number of Government Back-Bench Members wanted to ensure that issues of concern to them were subject to proper discussion on Report on the Floor of the House. I, as my party's Chief Whip, went to the then Chief Whip for the Government, the right hon. Member for Dewsbury (Ann Taylor), who sensibly thought that it was important to timetable the discussion on the Floor of the House to enable Members on both sides, including Labour Back Benchers, to debate issues that were divisive and controversial and to have a Division on them. That is a classic, sensible way to use programming. We agreed a programme across all the parties—I do not recall whether the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) or a colleague was involved—so that the issues that hon. Members wanted to debate could be prioritised. That is the sort of programming that I favour, because it does credit to the House and, most importantly, it produces better legislation.
On amendment (b), the Procedure Committee has produced a sensible suggestion that incorporates what we discussed all those years ago. It makes a clear distinction between those who discuss these matters in Committee and the general run of Members, because the delay is not just for fun. It is to ensure that the members of the Committee know that they are indeed to serve on it. The programme motion would incorporate the views of those Members who would do the job, and not just those of the Whips. The delay has a specific function and I congratulate the Committee on introducing that suggestion.
Amendment (c) is also very sensible, but amendment (d) is critical. It is self-determination within the Committee that is critical to effective decision making. The Programming Sub-Committee should not just take the form of a quiet discussion between the Whips. It should offer an opportunity for anyone on the Standing Committee involved to put their view about the way in
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which the Bill is being handled, its sticking points and controversial issues. I know from experience and from talking to several Chairs—
Sir Patrick Cormack: How can the hon. Gentleman talk to a chair?
Mr. Tyler: I have talked to several Chairs, in the sense of those persons of both genders who chair Committees.
Sir Patrick Cormack: Chairmen.
Mr. Tyler: I cannot take this old-fashioned nonsense. Everybody else refers to Chairs in a non-gender specific way.
Mr. Tyler: Well, I have talked to the Chairwomen and Chairmen of the Committees on this issue. The role of those people could be very important, because they could facilitate an effective discussion outwith the formality of the Committee sitting to ensure that proper priority is given to the decisions.
I have outlined the core principles. The Programming Sub-Committee should take full responsibility for the way in which Bills are considered in Committee. When Committee stage takes place on the Floor of the House, a fuller discussion is required. Back Benchers should have access to those discussions and they should not be a matter only for the three major parties. On Report, that is even more the case, because that is the moment at which the House is entitled to a report on the Bill by the independent Chair of the Committee. In that way, the whole House could be advised by the Standing Committee, which had full knowledge of the issues involved.
I am strongly in favour of the recommendations of the Procedure Committee and the way in which it has incorporated them into practical amendments to the motions. Although it will be a free vote, I hope that my colleagues will support me.
Motion No. 3 contains some sensible suggestions. We have now had time to recognise that sometimes there is great pressure from Members wishing to speak in a debate. I wish occasionally that we were allowed two days for a Second Reading, but the sheer weight of legislation makes that more difficult. However, the quid pro quo for agreeing to give the Chair more discretion on the timing of speeches should be the Government agreeing to be more flexible when allocating time for Second Readings. The Government should also take more note of what a Committee Chair, and his or her Committee, has to say about the extent to which a Bill has been considered. However, I accept that in all circumstances there will be occasions when the number of Members wishing to speak should mean that the Speaker, or his representatives in the Chair, has the option to limit speeches.
The argument about deferred Divisions is curious. In a sense, we will have a deferred Division at 6 pm. I have not counted how many hon. Members are in their places, but it is nonsense to suggest—as the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) said a few moments ago—that we all arrive to vote having fully
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discussed and listened to all the arguments. On occasion, most of us—although I hope not all of us all the time—come to a Division without having heard all the arguments or speeches. It is now 3 pm and there are three hours to go before we have a Division, but that does not mean that it will be disconnected from the debate. Precedents exist: on occasion we had deferred votes on matters that came before the House when it sat in Committee or on Report, even before deferred Divisions were introduced. Indeed, we have had remarkably few deferred Divisions recently, which shows that it has been a useful discipline on the Government. I hope that that will continue. Deferred Divisions should be the exception, rather than the rule, as seems to be the pattern at the moment.
On motion No. 5, the hon. Member for Macclesfield places great emphasis on the issue of cross-party agreement. Not only is that obligatory in the other place, but there it is—to some extent—linked to the issue of pre-legislative scrutiny. That is a valid argument and an effective way to ensure that the end product is not damaged by the guillotine at the end of the Session—which has always seemed a curious way to do business. We all know—it is a fact of life—that as the end of a Session approaches, interesting discussions take place through the usual channels at both ends of the building. If the Government are not required to secure cross-party agreement, it reduces the Opposition's ability to do their job.
In your memorandum, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you placed great emphasis on the need for some mechanism to discuss such issues. At the moment, all such discussions are very informal. I would like the Deputy Leader of the House to look again at the recommendations from the Modernisation Committee, and accepted by the House, that immediately after the Queen's Speech we should have cross-party discussions on the format of the legislative programme. The Opposition parties would have the opportunity to say which Bills might be candidates for carry-over, which required pre-legislative scrutiny, and so on. That would avoid the current ridiculous situation in December and January—the London bus syndrome—when five Bills tear through the House at top speed and then none follow for months. The same thing happens in the other place. We need to pace the legislative programme better. Carry-over of Bills should be allowed, but it should be a matter for discussion between the parties.
In your very interesting memorandum, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you suggested that we might look again at the proposal for some form of business Committee, however informal, as the Scottish Parliament has. I hope that the Government will consider that issue again. It is true that after that recommendation was accepted by the House, we had such a discussion. The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst and I met the Leader of the House and we had a desultory conversation—because the outcome looked like a fait accompli—and we asked that the debate should continue. It never did. Indeed, the Leader of the House resigned before we had an opportunity to make such a Committee a permanent feature of our parliamentary year. I suspect the sticky fingers of the Whips Office, because it saw the whole idea of any public—or, at least, more formal—discussion with Opposition parties about the format of the legislative programme as reducing its
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nefarious powers. It is no wonder that some Labour Members talk about the Whips Office as the dark forces of retrograde action.
Finally, it is time that we did something about the misnomer "strangers"—at least formally in our Standing Orders. I do not care who says what in Central Lobby when the Speaker's procession goes through—whether they say "Hats off, strangers" or "Hats off, visitors". Incidentally, as only strangers are required to remove their hats it implies that all Members are still wearing theirs. That is a bit anachronistic, too. I have a drawing by the great Phil May of a Member, complete with his top hat, sitting in the place currently occupied by the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Mudie). We no longer wear them, although the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst may wish that we did. We move on, and the time has come for us to say more honestly and openly that those who send us here have the right to be treated as part of the body politic rather than as strangers to it.
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