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Mr. Forth: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Tyler: No, I am about to finish.
The report is extremely important. It is evidence-based and the Committee has taken infinite trouble. It is supported by all the parties represented on the Committee and there is to be a free vote. I hope that the Deputy Leader of the House will be able to give an assurance, perhaps endorsed by one of his Front-Bench Treasury colleagues, that no guidance—I use the word advisedly—will be given to Labour Members when the Divisions take place today, and that all Members on both sides of the House will vote as their consciences, rather than the Whips, dictate.
3.1 pm
Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): I am grateful to be called, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am also extremely grateful to you and to the Speaker for selecting the amendments tabled by the Procedure Committee. I emphasise that they were tabled by all parties represented on the Committee.
I shall refer briefly to the speech made by the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody). We may be political opponents, but I respect her as an outstanding parliamentarian who has made a huge contribution during the many years she has served in this place. She is a true democrat who, in debates such as this, represents the best interests of the House as a whole, not of her party or of the Opposition, and that is of paramount importance.
I thank the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) for his support for the Procedure Committee's recommendations. That shows that the Committee can obtain support across the House for its reasonable proposals, for the benefit of the House and its job of scrutinising legislation and holding to account the Government of the day.
I shall speak to the amendments. Is it your wish that I move them formally later on, Mr. Deputy Speaker?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst):
I find it difficult to give advice to the hon. Gentleman, who is
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Chairman of the Procedure Committee, but it would be appropriate to move the amendments at the end, before the votes are taken.
Sir Nicholas Winterton: That is what I thought, Mr Deputy Speaker, but even after the years I have served in this place, I look to the Chair for reassurance and I am grateful for that reassurance.
I shall concentrate on the amendments and on the two Procedure Committee reports that are the subject of the first two motions. I advise the House that we published our report on the programming of legislation in July. I remind the House that programming was introduced on a consensual—I emphasise that word—basis in 1997, but it is with great sadness that I must note that over the next two years that consensus broke down.
In 2000, the Modernisation Committee recommended a more detailed set of provisions but it implied that programming would still be used—I say this especially to the Deputy Leader of the House—only when there was cross-party agreement. The previous allocation of time orders would be available when necessary where there was no such agreement. To an extent, the Government motions go against the first two recommendations of the Modernisation Committee, by denying that programme motions should be by consensus and that where there was no consensus the previous allocation of time orders would be available.
In fact, the orders introduced by the Government in 2000 include no requirement for cross-party agreement, and most of the time, sadly, it has not been forthcoming, for reasons that my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) spelled out in his opening speech. Although there are plenty of examples of day-to-day co-operation, it remains the case that most programme orders are divided on.
The Modernisation Committee reported on programming a year ago. The Leader of the House referred to that report. The aim of the Procedure Committee was to build on the report, take some evidence from Members, and consider whether we could make programming more generally acceptable across the House, either by changing the programming orders or by encouraging a change in the way those orders are used.
There is no inconsistency in opposing the principle of a Government Bill while seeking to agree on the length of time for which it needs to be debated. In our report, which as usual was unanimous, we proposed a number of changes to the Sessional Orders to try to make programming work better for all concerned while providing safeguards—I direct these remarks particularly to the Deputy Leader of the House. The Government's motion does not implement all of them, so we have tabled some amendments—again, with cross-party support—to implement those that they did not accept.
I shall go through the main recommendations in the order in which they are set out in our report.
Mr. Redwood:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and his Committee, who have done marvellous work, and I heartily recommend their conclusions to the House.
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When I was a Minister, I was keen that there was enough time in Committee for all Back-Bench Members on both sides of the House to make all their points. There is one thing worse for a Minister than having too lively a Committee stage and that is to let a defective piece of legislation go through, thus making the whole Government look silly because it was not properly scrutinised and amended. Does my hon. Friend agree that Ministers, in their own interest, should want more serious debate in Committee to spare them the embarrassment of bad legislation?
Sir Nicholas Winterton: I agree wholeheartedly with my right hon. Friend, but I emphasise my concern that, historically, there have been occasions when filibustering, whether by the Government or the Opposition, was the order of the day. That is something that I deeply regret. However, if the House is to do its job, it is essential that adequate time be allocated for proper and full detailed scrutiny of legislation.
Sir Nicholas Winterton: I give way to my hon. Friend, who is a member of my Committee.
Mr. Swayne: My hon. Friend will be aware of the intervention made by the right hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes), based on his experience on a recent Joint Committee on pre-legislative scrutiny. Does my hon. Friend agree that that suggests that more time is needed for Standing Committees? I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that were the recommendations of the right hon. Gentleman's Committee not to be taken, he would have rather more to say if he were subsequently to find himself on the Standing Committee for that Bill. I have been in that position as a member of a Standing Committee; because the Government had not taken account of the arguments made during the pre-legislative scrutiny, we had more to say and thus needed greater time in which to say it.
Sir Nicholas Winterton: My hon. Friend raises an interesting issue. My only comment in response is that I fully and warmly support pre-legislative scrutiny. I hope that there will be more of it and that the Government will be more forthcoming in the new Session of Parliament about those measures that will be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny. However, following my hon. Friend's intervention in relation to the right hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes)—a past Minister in a Labour Government—I will say that Standing Committees are likely to be better informed; thus while the debates may be as long as in the past, they will be better focused and the quality and relevance of debate will be improved.
Mr. Heald:
I wonder whether my hon. Friend is aware that the Civil Contingencies Bill underwent pre-legislative scrutiny? At the end of the Standing Committee, the Minister, the Liberal spokesman and I agreed that, in fact, the Standing Committee had been much better as a result of the pre-legislative scrutiny.
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Sir Nicholas Winterton: My hon. Friend, who speaks from the Opposition Front Bench, merely confirms what I have already said in response to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne). I have spoken at great length to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd), whose views on that Bill are very strong, and I suspect that, if he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, he may even mention that Bill in this debate.
Our first recommendation is the subject of amendments (b) and (c). The Procedure Committee believes that there should be some incentive for the parties in the House to agree—yes, to agree—on a programme order. We propose that a programme motion should pass without debate only if it is tabled with the support of three parties, including the Government and the largest Opposition party; otherwise, there should be a one-hour debate. We also suggest that, whether or not there is a debate, there should be an opportunity to take decisions on amendments to programme motions.
The Government's reply suggests that the Opposition parties would continue to oppose programme motions and force an hour's debate on each occasion. I sincerely believe that that would not be the case. By contrast with the Government's view, I would expect the Procedure Committee's proposals to result in a better atmosphere in which both those on the Opposition Front Bench and the Government would negotiate more fully and constructively, so that a debate would seldom, if ever, be necessary. The principle of encouraging agreement by dispensing with a debate when agreement is achieved is recognised elsewhere in the programming orders and in the Standing Orders on regulatory reform orders.
The Procedure Committee thought that programming is introduced to our current procedures too soon. Currently, the Government have to table a programme motion before the debate on Second Reading, thereby fixing an out date for the Standing Committee before even hearing the arguments and assessing the opposition to a Bill. That point was made by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire. The Procedure Committee recommends that the initial programme motion should not be voted on until 48 hours after the debate on Second Reading. That is also dealt with in amendment (b). I repeat that the programme motion, which we believe should be considered 48 hours after the debate on Second Reading, would be decided by vote, if a vote were necessary, without debate. I see no good reason why the Government could not accept that proposal.
When a Bill is being considered in Standing Committee, there is often a need to make changes to the programme motion, either because the Government have agreed to change the out date or because one of the internal knives needs moving. Currently, such a change necessitates a meeting of the Programming Sub-Committee, sometimes in the middle of a Standing Committee sitting. Often, however, the change proposed has already been negotiated between the parties. We have therefore recommended that the necessary motion should be moved in the Standing Committee itself, unless any Member objects. We are glad that the Government have accepted that recommendation, which appears in paragraph (5) of the
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motion. That should save time, and it is also for the convenience not only of the House but of the Standing Committee particularly.
Sometimes, however, there may be no time to change the timetable as I suggest. I have in mind occasions when there is a series of Divisions in the House, and when the Committee returns, the time allowed has expired and the Chairman has to put the question straight away. I hope that the Leader of the House will listen to this. We therefore recommend injury time for Divisions in the House. It seems only fair that, if we are given an allocation of time under a programme motion, we should be allowed that full allocation and the Divisions in the House should not be included in that time. We also recommend a general power for the Chairman to delay the falling of a knife by up to 15 minutes for the general convenience of the Committee. Both those recommendations are dealt with in our amendment (d).
One further recommendation that we made—this appears in our amendment (a)—is for a list to be drawn up of the clauses and schedules that have not been discussed in Committee because of the operation of the programme motion. That is intended to inform the debate on Report on the Floor of the House. The Government reply points out that hon. Members could extract that information from the Standing Committee Hansard and in part they are right, but we believe that it would be much more convenient to print it at the back of the amendment paper used on Report.
In particular, I remind the Leader of the House—he did not refer to this in his opening speech—that clause numbers often change after consideration in Committee and that our statement on the rear of the amendment paper could contain the revised numbers. So I hope that the Leader of the House might review his decision on that.
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