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Mr. Swayne: May I give the right hon. Gentleman the benefit of my experience on the Regional Assemblies (Preparations) Bill, on which we had the benefit of the report and the recommendations of the pre-legislative scrutiny phase? It was precisely because the Government had not implemented the recommendations that we were able, armed with the report and the evidence of which he has spoken, to put our arguments more effectively, but that takes time. It is a better-quality debate, but it is not shorter as a consequence of pre-legislative scrutiny.
 
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Mr. Foulkes: It may not be shorter on individual issues, but it will narrow down the range of issues on which debate is necessary, although we have yet to see how the Government respond to our report on the draft Charities Bill. I chaired the last sitting of the Joint Committee because my right hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Milburn) was moved into the Government. We managed to get all-party consensus on a number of divisive issues. I think that many of our recommendations will be accepted by the Government and we will have narrowed down the things that need to be considered in detail in Standing Committee.

Mr. Forth: It may well be that pre-legislative scrutiny has a value, but surely it can never replace the legislative role of a Standing Committee, of which the members are likely to be completely or substantially different from those who carried out the pre-legislative scrutiny. For the right hon. Gentleman to suggest that because one group has done excellent work beforehand, a completely different group, with a different role, can do less work cannot be right. They are complementary and do not replace one another.

Mr. Foulkes: I agree that pre-legislative scrutiny does not replace the proper legislative scrutiny on which we, as elected Members of Parliament, have ultimately to take the decision. What I am saying is that it will narrow down the opportunities for division. I also hope that members of a Standing Committee will not be completely different from those who served on the Joint Committee. We are talking about procedure, and the whole issue is open for discussion. It would be sensible for someone from the Joint Committee to serve on the Standing Committee. We can learn a number of things from the Scottish Parliament, including its experience of pre-legislative scrutiny, which helps to shorten the time that is needed for proper scrutiny.

I freely confess that I was as guilty as anyone of filibustering when the time was available, but I realised the futility of it.

Mr. Redwood: It was not as futile as the right hon. Gentleman thinks. I was a member of that Government, with a large majority. We left the Opposition the weapon of time, which meant that the Government had to think carefully about which contentious issues it wished to bring to the House and it limited the number of contentious issues that we could put through. This Government have removed that important check and balance.

Mr. Foulkes: I wish we had limited the number of contentious issues the Thatcher Government put through, but I am afraid that we did not. It was one after another after another. They were bashed through with the guillotine. I think that the right hon. Gentleman was a member of the Government who imposed a guillotine on Maastricht and the Single European Act. I remember that well because Lord Robertson and I dealt with it on the Front Bench, and we actually sat on a Friday because the Government were so intent on pushing it through. Secondly, on the carry-over of Bills, I take the same kind of radical view as my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike). I do not understand
 
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why a Government elected for the duration of a Parliament cannot carry-over their legislative programme during that period.

Mrs. Dunwoody: My right hon. Friend has been a member of the Government, so he knows that if inadequate legislation is introduced and the Government, for one reason or another, do not want to stick with it, one of the easiest and most comfortable ways of getting themselves out of a difficult corner is simply to let it lapse on the pretext that there is not enough time, and introduce better legislation at the beginning of the next Session. Not only have our Government done so consistently, but as far as I can remember, Conservative and other Governments have done so in the past 30 years.

Mr. Foulkes: We have got into that mindset. I have served on legislative programming committees in which the previous Lord Chancellor—I had better be careful what I say—submitted Ministers to something similar to the Star Chamber, to make sure that the legislation that we were introducing was as good as possible. There will always be problems with legislation, but other Parliaments manage to introduce carry-over Bills. There is an argument that in Britain the Commons and the Lords have always introduced fresh legislation in each Session, but I have not heard a logical argument why we should not carry over legislation and why Governments should not be able to introduce Bills throughout a Parliament. We have antiquated arrangements, and the House, for example, sits at times of the year when it is illogical to do so. Instead of having several Queen's Speeches during a Parliament it would be sensible to have one at the beginning to outline the legislative programme, and in the process save an awful lot of time, money and inconvenience. There is no logical argument against my proposal, which is more radical than a simple carry-over of Bills.

Thirdly, on the 10-minute limit, I try to make short speeches, as you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, although I must watch myself today. It is possible to make as effective a speech in eight or nine minutes as it is in 15 or 20.

Mr. Forth: The right hon. Gentleman has not done so this afternoon.

Mr. Foulkes: I have taken interventions, so I accept the right hon. Gentleman's criticism. Usually, however, when tackling a single subject, Members can make an effective speech within 10 minutes.

Finally, I am happy to remove references to strangers. There is a wonderful establishment in Dalrymple in my constituency called the Kirkton Inn. On the menu, the door, the doormat is the message, "Strangers are only friends you have not yet met." That is a nice sentiment, even though it is has nothing to do with our debate. Perhaps I can send a copy of Hansard to the Kirkton Inn. I have never understood why we use the term "strangers"—let us call such people visitors or the public. For goodness' sake, however, let us not call them the general public. As I said at the beginning of my speech, I am not known as a great moderniser, but
 
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I agree with the Government's proposals, apart from their recommendations on Order D, against which the hon. Member for Macclesfield argued convincingly. Without any pressure from the Government, I can say that their proposals are very sensible indeed.

3.39 pm

Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): There is one thing at least on which the right hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) and I agree: the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) made an excellent speech. I will not follow the right hon. Gentleman in all that he said, although I shall probably pick up some of his points later.

People in this country labour under a great misconception, which is shared by a good number of hon. Members—that is, that Parliament governs the country. How often do people say to us at surgeries, "Well, you govern the country"? Parliament, as we know, does not. Parliament exists to hold the Government to account and to try to supervise those who have been charged with the government of the country. What we are debating today—it is the most important part of our debate—is how we hold the Government effectively to account and maintain an orderly discipline of our business.

My hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton) and his Committee have performed a signal service in the report that they produced. The House would be well advised, in a free vote, to accept the recommendations and to reject firmly the changes that the Leader of the House and his colleague wish to insert in the report. In effect, the Leader of the House is emasculating many of the recommendations suggested in a unanimous report by my hon. Friend and his colleagues on an all-party Committee. They have tried to reconcile the understandable desire and need of any Government to get their business through with the absolute necessity for Parliament thoroughly to examine and properly to scrutinise the legislation put before it.

The Deputy Leader of the House is nodding vigorously. I have great regard for him and for his colleague, the Leader of the House. Whether inadvertently or not, what the Government have recommended to the House today is inimical to what my hon. Friend and his colleagues propose. The Government should think again. If they are not prepared to do so, I hope that when he winds up the Deputy Leader of the House will give us a reassurance that there is to be a truly free vote and that every Labour Member, including every member of the Government, is free to vote in whichever Lobby he or she pleases. We are considering a House of Commons matter and it is important for it to be resolved by the House of Commons.

I was half-grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald), the shadow Leader of the House, for his response to my pointed intervention. He did not come the whole way, but I hope he will when, with your leave, Madam Deputy Speaker, he winds up the debate. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend says he did not think he was going to do that. I hope he will, so that he can say what I am about to suggest. It is
 
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important that the Opposition make it plain that if we are returned to government next year, which I hope and believe we will be, the recommendations of the Procedure Committee will be resurrected and placed before the House with the full support of the Government of the day.

I am one of the few Members present in the Chamber who has been here a very long time but has never served in government. I have briefly served on the Opposition Front Bench, but never in government. I have been critical of my own party in government when it imposed guillotines. I have spoken and voted against them because it is crucial that every Government recognise their accountability to Parliament and do not seek to undermine that accountability.

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