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Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): The only protection that the public have from an over-mighty Government legislating too much and legislating badly is provided by Members of Parliament in both Chambers, but particularly Members of the House of Commons.
As a Minister in a Government who had a big majority when I joined them, I was very conscious of the fact that leaving the weapon of time in the hands of the Opposition imposed an important constraint on that Government's ability to over-legislate, to legislate in haste or to legislate badly. Ministers had to agonise over the scarce resource of parliamentary time to pass legislation, and rightly so. Now the weapon of time has largely been taken away from the Opposition parties and from Back Benchers from the governing party. The Government no longer need take account of the scarceness of legislative time. They need not work so hard to decide what they really want to do, and to ensure that their legislation is well drafted and well thought through. I think that that is a bad development.
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There are two main ways in which legislation can be tested, honed and perfected. The first rests particularly heavily on the shoulders of Ministers. I am glad to say that when I was a Minister I did not have to legislate very often. I was always quite reluctant to legislate, feeling that we had quite enough laws already. When I was required to do so, however, I felt that I had a strong duty to go through any draft proposals likely to come to the House in great detail with those who had drafted them and those who advised on them, in order to test them. I did not want to bring to the House of Commons badly drafted legislation that would be exposed and made to look foolish by other Members, and would then need lengthy and elaborate amendment.
Even a Minister who tried to do the job seriously was sometimes forced into amendment by events, by good points made in Committee or by pressures within collective government; but I think that the first line of defence against bad legislation must be the Minister. In recent years Ministers have found it quite easy to get legislation through the House of Commons. They have realised that large amounts of a Bill will not be debated at all, and have become very sloppy. I do not feel that all Ministers—there are some notable exceptions—have the same earnest intent as those who tackled the issue behind closed doors with their officials and draftsmen, so that legislation would be in a reasonable state when it reached the House.
That is demonstrated by the large number of new clauses and pages that are regularly proposed at a very late stage in a Bill's progress, when it is realised—usually by Government officials rather than a Minister—that the Bill has been badly drafted. Pressure groups outside have finally got to grips with it, and have advised the officials; they in turn make Ministers revise, but they have to revise in a big way.
The second big line of defence for the public who will be affected by legislation is the Standing Committee, along with the wider meetings of the House on Second and Third Readings and, particularly, on Report. The Committee stage is, I think, the most important. Any sensible Minister would not wish to truncate good debate on difficult issues in a Bill. Of course the Committee stage should not be dominated by political disagreements and long speeches that verge on filibuster. The Chair deals with true filibuster, but we all know when Members are being clever enough to stay just within the limits while not using all the time as well as they might. Any Government with a majority have an easy way of dealing with that. Of course, any Government have the ultimate right to curtail debate and to introduce a timetable motion, but it should be the exception rather than the rule, and the Government should have to fight for it and to prove beyond peradventure to reasonable people that it is necessary to take that action because of the conduct of the Committee.
In Committee, a guillotine and individual knives often limit debate on individual clauses and other provisions. Debate could genuinely go on, to the benefit of the Minister as well the Committee, on particular parts of a Bill but it is simply not allowed because the guillotine is too prescriptive and is not thought through well—often, it is impossible in advance to think through how much debate is needed on clause 1, clause 2 clause 3 and the relevant amendments pertaining to those clauses.
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Therefore, I urge the Minister even at this late stage to understand the mood of the House of Commons today. It is not one of party political antagonism to the Minister and the Government. It was beautifully expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton), by his Committee and by hon. Members on both sides of the House who have spoken. The mood is that the Government have simply got the balance wrong, in respect not just of the Opposition and Back Benchers from the governing party but of the people who will be affected by the legislation and Ministers themselves.
There is no mileage for a Minister in being able to prove that he or she has rammed a Bill through in record time, if a year later he or she or a successor has to come back to the House and "I am very sorry"—well, they often do not say sorry—"but we got it all wrong and we need to change the legislation. It was done in haste. We now need to legislate again." It is far better from the Government's point of view if the House of Commons is allowed to do its job properly. That means not guillotining all these proposals. That means allowing sensible debate by hon. Members on both sides of the House, particularly in Committee, so that the double filters work. The Minister will then scrutinise the legislation more carefully before introducing it and the Committee will do the job properly. I urge the Government to understand the mood of the House and to realise that, in all our interests, to have a great Parliament we need time to do the job properly.
4.12 pm
Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I should like to make one or two observations without reprising many years of debate on the subject. The shadow Leader of the House said that the Government had a right to get their business. No constitutional principle has ever accepted that in the past. It cannot be so. The very purpose of Parliament is to examine the propositions that the Executive put before it. What does that mean for Labour MPs who oppose top-up fees, for example? Why do they oppose it if the Government have that right?
That understanding of the rights of Government by this House, as expressed by the shadow Leader of the House, is a profound misunderstanding of the purpose of the House. It plays into the hands of a Government who say, "We must get this business." The whole point of the House is to examine business, which is what has lain behind these debates for many years.
When we were in government, I used to analyse and to speak against the very few guillotines—I now look back on those days with regret—that were imposed in Mrs. Thatcher's heyday. They are nothing to the number of guillotines now. In their first year, the new Labour Government imposed more guillotines than were imposed in the 11 years of Mrs. Thatcher's premiership. It has now become a matter of routine. The House acquiesces in the business being programmed, as it is euphemistically called. In his second fine memorandum, which is included in the report of the Procedure Committee, the Deputy Speaker identifies those arguments, which go back four or five years. We are not much further forward. It has been the Government's shameless intention throughout that all
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the business in this House be determined by them; not just general debates and specific Bills, but even matters such as the time allocated for their consideration.
It was fascinating to discover in the Leader of the House's very shallow presentation that no reference was made to the facts. Under his leadership, the Modernisation Committee presented a report in 2002 that set out the details of the operation of programme orders in previous Sessions. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton) for updating that information. What do we discover about Parliament's ability to discuss legislation? Table A on page 5, on the operation of programme orders for the Communications Bill during the 2002–03 Session, shows the number of clauses or schedules stand part that were not reached because of the knife, a concept that we did not have some years ago. Only 105 were not reached, after all, so what does it matter?
What happened to the Communications Bill on Report? Consideration on Report used to be the vital point at which every Member of this House could contribute to the debate on an issue affecting their constituents. Three knives came into play and, as is shown under the heading
"Groups/Third reading not reached because of knife"
seven such groups were not reached.
We should also consider the very important Criminal Justice Bill, which was introduced the following day. Such legislation is central, in that it consists of measures that could send our constituents to prison and make criminal offences of certain acts; indeed, it guides this country's social, economic and political context in terms of criminal law. The Government provided 32 sittings for that Bill; how very generous! Seventy-one groups were not reached because of the knife, and 106 clauses and schedules stand part were not reached for that reason. Bravo! On Report, 11 knives came into play, and 13 such groups were not reached.
I could go on; the situation is indeed absurd. My hon. Friends have served on such Bills, as have new Labour Members. On the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill, 58 groups were not reached because of the knife and 73 clauses and schedules stand part were not reached. Such information underlines the effectiveness or otherwise of this approach, and undermines the proud claims of those who believe in what are politely called programme motions, but which, in truth, are indistinguishable from guillotines, as is acknowledged in Mr. Deputy Speaker's memorandum.
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