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Bill reported, with amendments; read the Third time, and passed, with amendments.
27 Oct 2004 : Column 1542

7.1 pm

Mr. Dominic Grieve: (Beaconsfield) (Con): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance in view of Mr. Speaker's ruling that important announcements on policy should first be made to this House. At 10.11 this morning, the Home Office put out a news bulletin entitled "Putting Victims First: the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Bill". It says:

On the second page in notes to editors, it states:


Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order.

Mr. Grieve: Madam Deputy Speaker, is it in order for the Home Secretary to make an announcement to the press that has not been preceded by an announcement to this House on a matter of such importance? Secondly, is it not misleading of the Home Secretary to suggest to any hon. Member—or, indeed, the press—who might read the statement that, notwithstanding his discourtesy in this matter, we were nevertheless going to hear from him during the course of our six-hour debate this afternoon? I seek your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker, on what can be done to ensure that announcements are made properly to this House and not through the device of being announced in the course of a debate to which they are not germane. What can Members of this House do to ensure that they are not misled by Government press notices suggesting that something is going to happen during the day when it either will not or cannot?

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Blunkett): Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.]

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The Home Secretary wishes to speak.

Mr. Blunkett: I may be able to help with the original point of order. It would have been perfectly feasible and possible for me to have made the announcement to the House had the Opposition not filibustered—[Interruption.]

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order.

Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Outrageous!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The House must come to order. A point of order has been made, and the Home Secretary is speaking to it.

Mr. Blunkett: Had the Opposition not filibustered deliberately to wipe out the Third Reading—[Interruption.]

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order.

Mr. Blunkett: That was a calculated way of avoiding a Third Reading debate. I do not understand why
27 Oct 2004 : Column 1543
Opposition Members felt it necessary to do so and why they could not face me at the Dispatch Box—[Interruption.]

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Secretary Blunkett is responding to a point of order, and he is entitled to be heard.

Mr. Blunkett: Notwithstanding that, I apologise to the House for not having had the opportunity to address it on the issues that have been raised tonight. Had I had the opportunity to speak on Third Reading, and therefore to be challenged on this matter, I would have done so.

Several hon. Members rose—

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. We must now proceed with the remaining business of the day.

David Maclean (Penrith and The Border) (Con): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is this relevant to the matter at hand?

David Maclean: It is, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have all heard the Home Secretary accuse Opposition Members of the parliamentary abuse that is filibustering. That is an absolutely outrageous suggestion. [Interruption.] I understood that decisions on whether or not there has been filibustering are for the Chair alone to make. Have you, Madam Deputy Speaker, or any of your predecessors in the Chair today, heard anything at all that was out of order and which could be remotely connected with the abusive term "filibustering"?

Several hon. Members rose—

Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: No, I am not taking any more points of order. If Mr. Speaker is not aware already of the disquiet in the House, I shall make sure that he is made aware of it, and of the comments that have been made.

Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): On a new point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is this a new point of order?

Mr. Hogg: It is, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Interruption.] The Home Secretary has made it plain, very courteously, that he was going to tell us about the statement that he wanted to make in the Third Reading
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debate. Would it be possible to arrange that he make an early statement tomorrow so that he can be questioned about what he wants to tell us?

Madam Deputy Speaker: I remind the right hon. and learned Gentleman that it is up to the Government to decide whether they wish to make a statement.

Several hon. Members rose—

Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: No, we are now proceeding to the Adjournment debate.

Mr. Forth: Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: I have indicated already that I will take no further points of order on this matter.

Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire) (Con): I beg to move, That the House sit in private.

Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 163 (Motion to sit in private):—

The House divided: Ayes 24, Noes 316.

Division No. 292
[7:10 pm


Carmichael, Alistair
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Forth, rh Eric
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Llwyd, Elfyn
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McLoughlin, Patrick
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Randall, John
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Sanders, Adrian
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Stunell, Andrew
Teather, Sarah
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Hugo Swire and
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown


Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Arbuthnot, rh James
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Austin, John
Bacon, Richard
Bailey, Adrian
Baker, Norman
Barker, Gregory
Barnes, Harry
Baron, John (Billericay)
Barron, rh Kevin
Beard, Nigel
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh A. J.
Berry, Roger
Blunkett, rh David
Blunt, Crispin
Borrow, David
Boswell, Tim
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burnham, Andy
Burstow, Paul
Butterfill, Sir John
Byers, rh Stephen
Byrne, Liam (B'ham Hodge H)
Cairns, David
Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Coaker, Vernon
Conway, Derek
Corston, rh Jean
Cotter, Brian
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dodds, Nigel
Donaldson, Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Brian H.
Dorrell, rh Stephen
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Drown, Ms Julia
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Etherington, Bill
Evans, Nigel
Ewing, Annabelle
Fallon, Michael
Farrelly, Paul
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flook, Adrian
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Francois, Mark
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gidley, Sandra
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Grieve, Dominic
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Healey, John
Heath, David
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hermon, Lady
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Hodge, Margaret
Hogg, rh Douglas
Holmes, Paul
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkin, Bernard
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, Norman
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Loughton, Tim
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCafferty, Chris
McCartney, rh Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
MacDougall, John
McFall, rh John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, rh Michael
Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, David
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moore, Michael
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Morris, rh Estelle
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
O'Hara, Edward
Öpik, Lembit
Organ, Diana
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Owen, Albert
Page, Richard
Paisley, Rev. Ian
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Pugh, Dr. John
Purchase, Ken
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Redwood, rh John
Rendel, David
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Robinson, Mrs Iris (Strangford)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruffley, David
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sayeed, Jonathan
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Sheridan, Jim
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Southworth, Helen
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Swayne, Desmond
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walter, Robert
Wareing, Robert N.
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, David
Weir, Michael
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, David
Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Wilshire, David
Winnick, David
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wyatt, Derek
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Jim Murphy and
Ms Bridget Prentice

Question accordingly negatived.

27 Oct 2004 : Column 1546

27 Oct 2004 : Column 1547

David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In view of the fact that the Home Secretary advertised to the press today that he was to make a statement on Third Reading, and in view of the fact that he could have made a statement at 7 o'clock, which is the point of interruption, have you had any notification that he intends to make a statement tomorrow about the very serious issues on the review of the sentencing for murder?

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