28 Oct 2004 : Column 489WH
Westminster Hall
Thursday 28 October 2004
[Sir Alan Haselhurst in the Chair]
Antisocial Behaviour
Mr. Deputy Speaker : We shall conduct the debate with the flexibility that has become the characteristic of cross-cutting questions in Westminster Hall. Nevertheless, it will be helpful if hon. Members are brief with their supplementary questions and Ministers are brief with their answers, so that the debate can flow as fully as possible. That is particularly important if we are to deal with as many questions as have been tabled, but I will endeavour to ensure that there is the proper breadth of discussion where that is needed, rather than regard question 17 as a winning post that must be reached at all costs.
Oral Answers to Questions
The Government were asked—
Enforcement
2.30 pm
1. Mr. Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): If the Government will make a statement on the enforcement of antisocial behaviour orders. [193542]
The Minister for Rural Affairs and Local Environmental Quality (Alun Michael) : The purpose of an antisocial behaviour order is to stop antisocial behaviour. Whereas a prosecution usually deals with a single offence, an ASBO can deal with a series of low-level, persistent incidents of damage that is done to individuals and communities by people who think that anything goes and that they can get away with it. Enforcement is crucial in giving the clear signal that the police, local authorities and the courts are serious and determined to act to restore confidence to local communities. The evidence shows that ASBOs succeed in reducing antisocial behaviour not only by the person who is the subject of the order but by others in the same community. The importance of enforcement has been stressed in guidance to magistrates.
Mr. Luff : I thank the Minister for that answer. I am sure that he agrees with me that the number of ASBOs issued is not a measure of success, and that diversionary routes away from offending behaviour during the ASBO process are what really matter. I am also sure that he will endorse the efforts of West Mercia constabulary and its partners to divert 16 and 17-year-old boys and girls away from their offending patterns of behaviour. However, if an ASBO is issued, it is crucial that it be enforced properly and thoroughly. Does the Minister share the concern expressed to me by police officers in
28 Oct 2004 : Column 490WH
West Mercia that the lack of secure accommodation to house those who have breached ASBOs could lead to a lack of respect for the ASBO process?
Alun Michael : First, let me say that yes, change of behaviour is the crucial element. Stopping people damaging the lives of others is what ASBOs are all about. Secondly, the number of orders that have been issued—more than 3,000—is a sign of success. The number issued is accelerating because the orders are being used more consistently and rapidly in appropriate circumstances. That is good news. Thirdly, the hon. Gentleman is wrong about secure accommodation. If we simply continued with a traditional approach and failed to intervene to stop people carrying on with activities that damage individuals, families and communities, we would need more secure accommodation. The fact is that ASBOs succeed in reducing the level of such activity.
Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): This is the first opportunity for cross-cutting questions on antisocial behaviour. Is it not all the more astonishing, therefore, that the Government's major announcement on the evidential basis on which antisocial behaviour orders have been working, on which we could have based our questions, will be not be made until 3.30 pm—the precise moment when these questions finish? May I put to the Minister one specific question on a matter that I believe will be part of that announcement? It is said that the Government plan to extend applications for ASBOs to community groups. Is that true? If so, how will that work, how will evidence be collected and what will be the legal advice to community groups?
Alun Michael : The hon. Gentleman is nearly as bad as the press in anticipating answers to questions that have not yet been asked and in looking to announcements that are being made in an appropriate way. The fact is that there are plenty of questions for him to ask about the performance of ASBOs and their success. Of course, Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members have opposed the actions taken by the Government to tackle and intervene on antisocial behaviour. It is the Government's intention to continue using the orders and associated measures to tackle antisocial behaviour and stop it. It is a pity that Opposition Members do not support us.
Mr. Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con): The concentration of ASBOs is not uniform throughout the country. Some areas are putting them into effect to a great extent; some have not issued any. So far as I am aware, Cambridgeshire has implemented and put in place only one order. What do the Government intend to do to ensure that ASBOs are put in place throughout the country?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Caroline Flint) : The hon. Gentleman is correct to say that in parts of the country there have been huge successes, and wide application of the use of ASBOs, and in others that has not happened. That is why we want to share good practice and why the "Together" campaign, the academies and the helpline for practitioners, whether in the police or the local authority, are important. As a
28 Oct 2004 : Column 491WH
result, if someone is thinking of using any of the measures on antisocial behaviour, they can get their questions answered clearly and quickly. Importantly, they can find out best practice from elsewhere. Every Member of Parliament has an opportunity to ensure that best practice is being implemented in their area. I am sure that the antisocial behaviour unit will be willing to assist the hon. Gentleman.
Alun Michael : May I add that if hon. Members consider their constituency experiences they will find many that are positive? In Cardiff in my constituency, for instance, ASBOs were not used for a long time, but since they have been used, with the help of the police, the local authority and an extremely good crime reduction officer, each of the communities where they have been used has benefited.
Mr. Heath : Am I really to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's earlier answer that it is improper, in the House of Commons during cross-cutting questions on antisocial behaviour, to ask about the future operation of ASBOs, because the proper place for doing so is at a press conference later this afternoon? Is that what he is saying?
Alun Michael : No, of course it is not. That is one of the silliest contributions that I have heard from an Opposition Member—and there is competition on that. I said that there were plenty of questions that hon. Members could ask about the application of ASBOs and their success and the way we are tackling and reducing antisocial behaviour across the country—items in which the hon. Gentleman appears not to be interested. He is interested only in the technicalities and in scoring debating points.
Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): Obviously, we all hope that antisocial behaviour orders do not have to be enforced, because we hope that they will be observed. However, we understand from the Government that approximately one third of antisocial behaviour orders are breached. Will the Minister help me on this: when she says that they are breached, does she mean that there is a report of a breach taking place, or that in one third of cases a breach has been taken before the magistrates court and adjudged to be a breach? As she will appreciate, those two things could be rather different. A proper statistical basis from which to start would be helpful.
Caroline Flint : The short answer is that I understand that they are cases that go before the court as breaches.
Mr. Grieve : So when my constituents in Burnham in Beaconsfield report that someone subject to an ASBO is running wild in the streets but that no steps are taken by the police for a considerable time to bring them before the court, no breach would be recorded during that time.
Caroline Flint : As far as I am aware that is not the case, but if that is happening in the hon. Gentleman's constituency he should raise it with the authorities locally. [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman would
28 Oct 2004 : Column 492WH
listen to my answer, that would be polite. If someone has an ASBO made against them, of course we want to make sure that it is enforced.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the figure of one third of ASBOs being breached; obviously, we want to improve on that. The fact that two thirds are not breached gives some measure of the success of the scheme.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I think that we will move on. There are various other questions relating to particular aspects of ASBOs.
Cost
2. Dr. Vincent Cable (Twickenham) (LD): What estimate the Government have made of the average cost of antisocial behaviour orders. [193543]
The Minister for Rural Affairs and Local Environmental Quality (Alun Michael) : I know that costs have come down. In 2002, the Home Office published a review of antisocial behaviour orders—the Campbell review—which quoted a cost of £4,800 for an ASBO. However, that figure was based on a very small sample of orders in the early period of their introduction and was skewed by one abnormally complicated and unrepresentative application. Applications usually cost much less than that, and the costs decrease with experience of using the orders. New research is due to be published later this autumn, which will show in detail how costs have significantly reduced since the Campbell review.
Dr. Cable : Can the Minister reconcile his answer that the costs are low with the information that he has just given that a third of people subject to ASBOs are currently in breach and with the fact that the Metropolitan police estimate that the cost of pursuing a breach through the courts can rise to £100,000? In view of the potentially very large costs, what independent work has the Home Office done on the cost-effectiveness of ASBOs relative to other forms of intervention?
Alun Michael : We know that the Liberal Democrats do not support the use of ASBOs, and I presume that the hon. Gentleman seeks to complicate what is a very simple matter. Breaches of ASBOs have resulted in custody for about 43 per cent. of the young people and 58 per cent. of the adults. The message that should go out is that the Government, the police and the local authorities are serious about enforcing ASBOs.
The hon. Gentleman has a responsibility to his constituents to reinforce that message and to say that notice should be taken when an ASBO is issued. In communities in which that message is being given out, the costs are coming down because the authorities are getting used to the application of ASBOs. I have seen that in my constituency and I have heard it from authorities in my constituency. That is what works.
Mr. Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): I have a particular problem with antisocial behaviour and low-level crime in my local shopping centre. The safer
28 Oct 2004 : Column 493WH
neighbourhoods programme was introduced partly as a result of that crime, following a very successful pilot that was carried out in another part of my constituency that saw a reduction of 25 to 30 per cent. of low-level crime in the area. The Metropolitan police press release says that the programme will tackle:
"quality-of-life crimes and issues that affect the day-to-day lives of the public"
in each area. Does the Minister believe that the programme will address antisocial behaviour issues in a community, and does she see it as a perfect way of reducing antisocial behaviour in our communities?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Caroline Flint) : I agree with my hon. Friend. This is about safer communities and safer neighbourhoods, and about all those who have a role to play, including the police, the local authorities, people who work with young people and adults, and, importantly, those with businesses in those communities. We can design out crime and work together. The work that has been done by the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and others has been fantastic in focusing people's attention on the problems faced by shop workers and on how they can play a constructive role in a partnership.
Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): I want to put on the record that the Conservative party did not oppose much of the antisocial behaviour legislation, and there have been certain successes. There is no doubt that working with the Home Office, the Metropolitan police and the local authority has produced some innovative antisocial behaviour orders in the City of Westminster in my constituency, particularly in hotspots where there has been a problem with, for example, prostitution.
The hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) got it absolutely right: ASBOs are very costly. As we all know, the Metropolitan police are under enormous cost constraints. Will the Minister say whether there is serious debate in the Home Office about what other options might be used? I accept that there is a dispute about the figures, but even given the relative success rate of ASBOs to which my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) referred, surely other options might be a more profitable way of ensuring that the lives of all our constituents are improved.
Caroline Flint : A number of other options could be used. We do not advise ASBOs to be used a tool of last resort: they are only one tool. The hon. Gentleman has tabled a question about acceptable behaviour contracts, which are simply another example of voluntary contracts that can be drawn up between, say, the police, social services, even a school and an individual in a way that will address the behaviour that is causing problems in a community. Many such contracts have been successfully applied. They are a voluntary measure, and we are considering all sorts of different ways in which we can tackle offending behaviour. Different costs are obviously associated with them.
There are also cost implications for breaches and appeals—an issue to which the hon. Member for Twickenham alluded. Overall, however, costs have gone down where there is good practice. Importantly,
28 Oct 2004 : Column 494WH
criminal justice practitioners, local authorities and others across the piece tell us that the costs will be far greater in the long term if we do not address offending behaviour among the young. Such behaviour can lead to young people being regulars in the criminal justice system throughout their lives.
Exclusion Orders
3. Mr. John Grogan (Selby) (Lab): What plans the Government have to increase the use of exclusion orders from licensed premises. [193544]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Phil Hope) : This April, the Home Office published "Violent Crime—Tackling Violent Crime in the Night-Time Economy—Guidelines and Tactical Options for Police" and information on crime and disorder reduction partnerships.
The guide includes details of how a court can make an order prohibiting a person from entering specified licensed premises. It also highlights how antisocial behaviour orders can be used to prohibit certain people from entering specific areas or premises. Those and other powers will continue to be promoted to tackle alcohol-related crime and disorder, as we take forward the recommendations in our alcohol harm reduction strategy for England.
Mr. Grogan : Given that exclusion orders are a cheap and effective way of dealing with alcohol-related crime, and that they are supported by pub companies and the trade unions that represent bar staff, are the Government considering revisiting the proposals in the original licensing White Paper, which would put the courts under a new duty at least to consider making exclusion orders in cases involving violence or disorder in pubs? That could increase the take-up of those very effective orders.
Phil Hope : It is important that we use all available powers, of which exclusion orders—in the 1980 Act—are one. They have enabled individuals who have committed a crime on licensed premises—a pub—to be dealt with. The new ASBOs can be applied more widely, such as when there is antisocial behaviour on licensed premises, for example. The combination of exclusion orders and ASBOs applying to individuals on particular licensed premises or in whole areas such as town centres, if an individual is moving from one place to another and causing antisocial behaviour, gives the authorities the powers that they need to take the action that my hon. Friend requires, which is to see people dealt with most effectively. We would like greater take-up of exclusion orders by landlords of licensed premises and others to ensure that we tackle the problem of one or two people behaving badly late at night, which causes such misery for many.
Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): Given the problems in central London and areas with many nightclubs, such as Havering, Romford, Ealing and Croydon, what discussions is the Minister having with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ensure that when the Licensing Act 2003 comes into force we will be able to ensure not only that exclusion orders
28 Oct 2004 : Column 495WH
come into play, but that all other costings will be reimbursed to local authorities, so that life is not made a misery for so many people who live in those residential areas?
Phil Hope : It is important that we get the fees regime correct. I am pleased to say that we are making good progress on agreeing with the Local Government Association on an appropriate system for licensing the fees regime to ensure that costs are recovered and there is no extra burden on local government, while ensuring that it has the wherewithal to deliver the new licensing regime.
Another important new initiative is that of business improvement districts, of which 21 are being piloted under regulations that were passed in the House a few weeks ago. Votes are going on in some of those areas among local businesses at the moment. Many BIDs are focused on the night-time economy and provide an opportunity for new resources and new ways of dealing with difficulties in areas such as those that the hon. Gentleman described, in order to create a thriving, vibrant night-time economy that benefits local communities and brings our town centres back to life.
Tenant Behaviour
4. Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): What take-up there has been by local authorities of the voluntary accreditation scheme for landlords as a means of encouraging the proper monitoring of tenant behaviour. [193545]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Phil Hope) : The Government do not hold official statistics on the number of accreditation schemes operating, but a directory of scheme codes is available on the Accreditation Network UK website, which holds details of about 70 schemes that are operating across the country. I emphasise that good landlords have nothing to fear from those schemes. The network has produced a model accreditation scheme, which draws together best practice from various schemes around the country. In order to foster consistency, the Government recommend that all local authorities base their schemes on that model.
Jon Trickett : I thank my hon. Friend for his response. I remind the Chamber that following the Conservatives' privatisation of estates in mining villages that were previously owned by the National Coal Board, a minority of irresponsible landlords failed to monitor tenants' behaviour, which led to flight from those communities and the gradual collapse of whole villages, certainly in my constituency. Is it not right that the Government pursue with vigour the proposal to build a partnership between local authorities, communities, responsible landlords and the criminal justice system to stamp out that behaviour, preventing the further destruction of communities by a minority of irresponsible tenants?
Phil Hope : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Such local partnership achieves the results that he wants. The legacy that we inherited in 1997 was not only what he
28 Oct 2004 : Column 496WH
describes. Many estates and communities were rundown because of lack of investment in housing stock, and combined with the high unemployment that we inherited, it caused huge difficulties. I am pleased that in many areas the combination of investment in capital stock, the decent homes programme and the return to much higher employment, has changed the nature of many neighbourhoods dramatically.
We must bring together the existing powers in those areas where there are still problems. They include a good accreditation scheme, where local authorities and landlords are working together; the use of antisocial behaviour orders and acceptable behaviour contracts, which can also apply to tenants; and the use of the statutory nuisance powers under previous legislation. If all the tools available in a local area are brought together, we can bear down on the problem and regenerate communities, so that they become cleaner, safer and greener.
Matthew Green (Ludlow) (LD): Does the Minister agree that it is not just the monitoring of tenant behaviour, but the promotion of good standards of housing, that will lead to a reduction in antisocial behaviour? Does he accept that the private sector can be part of the solution rather than just a problem, especially by encouraging private sector landlords to belong to trade organisations such as the National Landlords Association, through which it is easier to promote good practice?
Phil Hope : The hon. Gentleman is right. His point is that if we can promote and invest in good landlords, the unscrupulous landlords who do not play their part in the community will be seen for what they are. The Housing Bill includes the selective licensing of privately rented properties, and takes new powers to target those areas where the problems are the most acute, including the licensing of houses in multiple occupation and interim management orders.
We need to work with the good landlords, with the local authorities and with tenants to build a culture of responsible tenancy: responsible tenants and responsible owners. We also need to use the powers being introduced to bear down on the few landlords and tenants who make life such a misery for others.
David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): Three of the country's leading universities are in Leicestershire. As a resident of the county, I have found it disappointing in recent years to observe the decline in town-gown relationships because of the antisocial behaviour of a small minority of students. However, that is sometimes initiated and aggravated by inattention and lack of the observance of reasonable standards by private landlords who own such properties. Would not there be merit in examining the experience of some university towns and their accreditation schemes, integrating them with local authorities?
Phil Hope : That is a very helpful suggestion. Some universities—I think Birmingham is at the forefront—have been considering the impact of students being given accommodation in one part of town, which creates
28 Oct 2004 : Column 497WH
difficulties because of its effect on the local economy when the students leave in the summer. Other universities—
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Caroline Flint) : Leeds university.
Phil Hope : I am prompted by my hon. Friend that Leeds is one of the universities that is considering ways and means of dealing with the issue and investigating how landlords and local authorities can work together to manage that problem. The result has been lessons that apply not just in other university towns but, as my hon. Friend suggested, to tenants generally.
Local authorities now have an important strategic role considering all the needs of homelessness and housing in their areas, and not just from the landlord's point of view. That strategic role puts the local authority in a prime position to draw on best practice, bringing together the partners to solve the problems.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. Replies are getting a little long.
School Exclusions
5. Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge) (Con): To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Skills, if he will make a statement on links between school exclusions and antisocial behaviour. [193546]
The Minister for Children, Young People and Families (Margaret Hodge) : Excluded pupils are more likely to engage in antisocial behaviour and become involved in crime. Many will be offending prior to the exclusion, others will take up offending afterwards, and there is no clear understanding of the direction of causality. We are investing in early intervention to tackle the behaviour that leads to exclusion through a range of measures: for example, learning support units and learning mentors. Also, we have extended the scope of parenting orders and contracts to cover cases of exclusion following serious misbehaviour.
Mr. Randall : I thank the Minister for that reply. It is probably self-apparent that once those who are causing problems in schools are excluded they are very likely to cause the same sort of problems outside the school gates. It is obviously a problem. What discussions has the Minister had with other Departments on the matter? Presumably, once students are excluded they are not receiving a full-time education and are out in the community. What discussions have been had with the Home Office to try to get a grip on the problem?
Margaret Hodge : Every child of statutory school age will be receiving education, whether in school, in a pupil referral unit or by some other means at home. One of the issues that we have been pursuing with local education authorities is ensuring that they give every pupil, excluded or not, an education, as is their entitlement. However, it is a difficult issue, because having disruptive pupils in the classroom is of no benefit to the other children who are there to learn. We have to balance the interests of the rest of the cohort in the classroom with those of the individual child.
28 Oct 2004 : Column 498WH
The "Every Child Matters" agenda and the reforms that we are trying to instil in children's services are about bringing together all the agencies that work with troubled and troublesome youngsters to try to ensure that we prevent them from getting to the point of exclusion or, if we do exclude them, that they get the proper co-ordinated support from all services, so that we minimise the risk and harm that they could cause and maximise their potential and the contribution that they could make to the community.
Mr. Randall : Has any research been carried out into whether those who have been excluded try to influence people still in school to get them involved in trouble?
Margaret Hodge : I do not have any research to hand, but I share the hon. Gentleman's view that troublesome teenagers probably influence their peer group, whether they are in school, on the council estates or in their communities. Wherever they are located, peer groups have a strong influence. How do we tackle that, particularly with teenagers? In working towards the youth Green Paper, which we hope to publish in the not too distant future, we are trying to find positive activities in which to engage young people. It is important to give them something to do and somewhere to go.
Trying to spot the difficulties early so that intervention can be made early is also important, as is getting the agencies to work together and with the families to ensure that early intervention. The work that we are doing to support parents, as well as promoting the interests of children and young people, should go some way to lessening the problem.
Matthew Green (Ludlow) (LD): I am sure that the Minister will be aware that one of the best ways of reducing exclusion is reducing levels of unacceptable behaviour in classrooms. One of the most successful ways that that has happened in recent years has been through the building of a school designed by Sir Norman Foster. As I understand it, that school has seen a dramatic reduction in the number of pupils playing truant and in the bad behaviour of those in school. To what extent is the DFES investigating how good design of schools can play a part in reducing unacceptable behaviour levels?
Margaret Hodge : Design is a factor, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman supports the enormous capital investment that we have embarked on, particularly for secondary schools. We have said that within 10 years every secondary school will either be renewed or rebuilt so that it is fit for purpose in the new century. I also hope that he supports the investment that we are making directly in behaviour and attendance. We are spending nearly £500 million in the 2003 to 2006 spending review period on promoting good behaviour in the classroom and dealing with both authorised and non-authorised non-attendance, which is another factor that can cause problems in the community such as antisocial behaviour.
I would also point out to the hon. Gentleman that as well as buildings we must consider the quality of the staff and the support given to children and young people from teachers and other school support staff. Our
28 Oct 2004 : Column 499WH
massive investment in recruiting and keeping teachers, and offering them appropriate professional development, is important.
Police Community Support Officers
6. Mr. Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): What measures are being introduced to extend the powers of PCSOs. [193547]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Caroline Flint) : In the consultation paper "Policing: Modernising Police Powers to Meet Community Needs" which was published in August, the Government proposed adding to the powers of PCSOs. I congratulate my hon. Friend on his ten-minute Bill, which raised the issue in the House. As is so often the case, the development of Government policy on antisocial behaviour has been greatly helped by the attention brought to it by Members such as him.
The new powers proposed for PCSOs in the paper are those to direct traffic, to deter begging, to enforce byelaws and to search a detained person who may present a danger to himself or others—that particular power has been piloted in my hon. Friend's area. In the consultation paper, we also proposed extending the powers of PCSOs to deal with the night-time economy and alcohol-related antisocial behaviour. The consultation period has now closed, and we are considering all the replies and hope to respond in the not too distant future.
Mr. David : I thank the Minister for her positive reply. The introduction of PCSOs has been an undoubted success, and the fact that communities have responded so positively shows that the Government are moving in the right direction. However, there is a need to strengthen the powers of the PCSOs, as the Minister suggested. I recognise that this is a contentious area, but there is an argument that, in certain specified, limited circumstances, PCSOs should have a power of arrest. I hope that at some time in the not too distant future, the Government will find time to consider that possibility.
Caroline Flint : On the whole area of antisocial behaviour, the Government have been very much in listening mode, taking account of people's direct experiences. However, it is important that we walk before we run. We must recognise that we should deal with the power of arrest carefully and constructively, and we must be clear that there are different roles for police officers and community support officers. We want to ensure that the powers that we grant will be used—that is important—and that there is adequate support for PCSOs. We also want to ensure that the scheme is developed in line with the law enforcement family, in which people work together. I have listened to my hon. Friend, but we must first ensure that we get right the present powers and those that might be on board in the not too distant future.
Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): The divisional commander in Havering has been pleased to have PCSOs as an additional aid to policing, but he shares my concern that, having heard the Home Secretary express
28 Oct 2004 : Column 500WH
his intention of increasing significantly the number of PCSOs and the possibility of increasing their duties, they will be used instead of, and not as well as, police constables. We want to ensure that if the cost is coming out of the global budget of, in our case, the Metropolitan police, the PCSOs will be additional rather than taken from the budget for police constables.
Caroline Flint : There is no intention to take money from the budget for police constables. We have the highest recorded number of police officers ever—
Angela Watkinson : Not in Havering.
Caroline Flint : Well, the number of police officers in England and Wales is the highest ever, and that is welcome. However, it is a question not only of police numbers but of ensuring that fully trained police officers can carry out the duties for which they have been given powers. It is a question of intelligence-led policing and of ensuring that civilians can do some of the bureaucratic work because, important though it is, we do not want police officers spending their time behind desks. In that respect, community support officers are about added value—they add value to the family of law enforcement.
David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): Over the past few months, I have had extensive contact with parish councils and police officers in North-West Leicestershire, and if my experiences are typical, there is no doubt that communities are strongly warming to CSOs and that police officers are working effectively with them. However, in echoing the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. David), I put it to the Minister that CSOs would be more effective if they were more certain of their future. Many of the funding schemes are very short term. Can the Minister give us some assurance that, at least in the medium term, CSOs can be certain of the jobs that they hold for longer periods? Periods of two years or less are no spur towards effectiveness and do not boost morale.
Caroline Flint : I take on board my hon. Friend's point, but the announcement just a short time ago of our ambition to raise the number of CSOs to 25,000 gives some indication of how important we think they are. The certainty that we can provide through funding is important, but we must also consider what is provided in local communities. CSOs have a right and proper place in tackling concerns in our communities, and particularly antisocial behaviour. It is a matter of changing how we deal with such issues and then of chief constables and others, including local authority colleagues who are involved with neighbourhood wardens, doing things differently. We acknowledge that that will require additional funding in some areas and we have put record amounts into provision. However, in some ways, it is also question of saying, "If it works, it's worth funding. If it doesn't work, stop funding it." Those choices have to be made at national and local level. However, I hear my hon. Friend's point.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Has the Minister considered the role that community support officers could play in serving graffiti removal
28 Oct 2004 : Column 501WH
notices on businesses such as the Post Office, Telewest and Network Rail, which, certainly in my constituency, are often the least effective at removing graffiti?
Caroline Flint : The hon. Gentleman has tabled a question on graffiti, and we take the issue very seriously. Graffiti removal has primarily involved local authorities. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have consulted widely on how we can improve the way in which we deal with those responsible for graffiti, including tagging, as well as with graffiti on amenities. Local authorities are being given powers so that they can make organisations remove graffiti within 28 days. In my community in Doncaster, community support officers employed by the local authority are often involved in addressing graffiti issues.
I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, and we are constantly discussing the different roles that individuals such as community officers, neighbourhood wardens or others can play in dealing with such problems in our communities.
Drugs
7. Mr. Peter Atkinson (Hexham) (Con): To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Skills what steps the Government have taken to assess the effect of the availability of illegal drugs in schools on antisocial behaviour. [193548]
The Minister for Children, Young People and Families (Margaret Hodge) : Evidence from the Department of Health's survey "Smoking, drinking and drug use among young people" indicates that there is a strong link between truancy and exclusion from school and drug taking. We have made it clear that illegal drugs have no place in schools. We are supporting head teachers and governing bodies, together with local partners, including the police, in their efforts to tackle illegal drugs in schools.
Mr. Atkinson : I thank the Minister for her reply. I apologise for not being here at the start of the sitting and for having to leave quite soon to take part in the debate on the Floor of the House. However, it is difficult to be in two places at once.
There is anecdotal evidence that recreational drugs in particular—ecstasy being one such drug—are freely traded in some schools. School heads and staff are reluctant to involve the police in stopping and searching pupils in the school grounds, because it would give the school such a bad reputation. What advice does the Minister have for head teachers and staff who realise that some of their pupils may be taking drugs or, more seriously, trading them?
Margaret Hodge : I am quite surprised by the experience in the hon. Gentleman's constituency, because we are encouraging more and more schools to have a police presence on the premises. Indeed, a new school is being built in my constituency that will have a mini police station or a place for a police surgery within the grounds.
Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): What? God almighty.
Margaret Hodge : The hon. Gentleman expresses surprise, but I think that it is important to have all those
28 Oct 2004 : Column 502WH
services that support children and families located around the area where they feel safe. Whether it is the police, health and youth services or other services, having them located together is a positive move to encourage positive behaviour, rather than always coming in when things have gone wrong and having to implement measures such as antisocial behaviour or parenting orders.
I am surprised by the comments of the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson). Perhaps he will write to me about the schools where he has had such experience. We are encouraging heads to work much more closely with schools. We are providing a lot of education about drugs and we are training teachers to provide better education to prevent children moving into the drug culture.
Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): I am slightly horrified by the Minister's last reply. What a state we have got into. I wanted to ask her about cannabis use in the school playground. There is growing evidence of a reaction that can cause mental health difficulty leading to antisocial behaviour among a significant minority of young people who take cannabis. Will the Government look again at the decision that they made some months ago to reclassify cannabis as a class C drug? Was that not with hindsight a rather absurd decision?
Margaret Hodge : The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), who is the great expert on drugs in the Home Office, will deal with that. I want to come back on the issue of whether it is horrifying to have a police presence within a school. [Hon. Members: "A police station."] There will be some police officers based in the school.
Matthew Green (Ludlow) (LD): Armed guards?
Margaret Hodge : There is a mistaken view being expressed in that horror that the police are not there to prevent crimes but simply to detect them. If we want to build confidence among young people in the police service and if we want to move from always intervening only when things have gone wrong, we cannot keep the police as a separate arm. If we want to build that stronger preventive infrastructure and to prevent children and young people from falling through the net, it is important to have the police service and the whole of the criminal justice system engaged in the support services that we provide for children and young people, whether that is through health services, social care, or education.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Caroline Flint) : I do not agree with the hon. Member for South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter) that it was a mistake to reclassify cannabis. We have classifications to demonstrate the different harms of drugs. It is important that we do that in a credible way. Our polling has shown that the work we did during the reclassification process was successful, because the vast majority of young people continue to believe that it is an
28 Oct 2004 : Column 503WH
illegal drug. Having said that, the whole point of the work that we do for young people on substance misuse is geared to deal with all sorts of drugs—both illegal and legal—that young children can get into a pattern of misusing. We have pooled the young people's treatment budget from a number of different organisations so there is one pot locally. Local people and agencies can decide how best to use that money.
Young people from 10 places are currently involved in drug-testing pilot schemes; even if a person does not test for a class A drug, evidence of other substance misuse will be attended to. This is about the relative harms of different drugs and having credible information with which to engage young people, but making sure that they recognise that all drugs in all classifications do harm. However, that harm is relative.
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): That we should have mini-police stations at schools is symptomatic of the dreadful state to which our once great nation has sunk.
On a wider subject and leaving drug abuse to one side, is the Minister not concerned about solvent abuse, which has resulted in more deaths among teenagers than drug abuse in recent years? Is she not concerned that the main thrust of the education programme of the Department for Education and Skills on that front is to do with the drugs themselves and has remarkably little to do with solvent abuse? Will she commit the Government to increasing the amount of education on the subject of solvent abuse?
Caroline Flint : The hon. Gentleman makes a point. Many substances, both legal and illegal, cause huge problems if they are misused by anyone—but especially by young people. Last year, I and my colleagues from the Department for Education and Skills and the Department of Health started a project called "Blueprint", which is being carried out in years 7 and 8 at about 25 schools. It has brought together some of the best practices in drug education and prevention among young people from around the world.
I was pleased to visit a school in Lancashire, which is looking at a whole range of habits, from illegal drugs to solvents, cigarettes and alcohol—and also prescribed drugs. Some children have access to prescribed drugs at home, and there have been some terrible accidents as a result of children not realising the seriousness of using drugs straight from the medicine cabinet. It is an important issue, and we are looking across the board for better ways to engage with young people, in order to explain the consequences of taking substances that could have serious effects. Access to solvents is also a problem for young people, and legislation has been enacted to deal with that matter. However, we have to be vigilant about those who might be disruptive by allowing youngsters access to solvents.
Witness safety
8. Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): To ask the Secretary of State what measures the Government will introduce to ensure the safety of witnesses to antisocial behaviour when giving evidence to the police. [193549]
28 Oct 2004 : Column 504WH
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Caroline Flint) : The Government's national strategy "A New Deal for Victims and Witnesses", of July 2003, acknowledges the need for victims and witnesses of antisocial behaviour to receive the same level of support as victims and witnesses of crime. The national roll-out of the "No Witness, No Justice" project started in April 2004, and we hope that it will improve the experience of all witnesses moving through the criminal justice system, whether in the civil or the criminal courts.
Angela Watkinson : Havering police have just issued their first ASBO. One of the main contributory factors in the delay and the inordinately long time that it has taken to produce the order was the difficulty of persuading witnesses to appear in court.
There is a real fear among those giving evidence, particularly in cases involving "neighbours from hell" in which not only the individual who is going to court but the whole family are engaged in a variety of antisocial behaviour. The real fear of witnesses is that the case will go to court and they will give evidence, but the case will fail. Those who give evidence will then have to return to the situation that caused the problem. Not only the accused but other members of the accused person's family are likely to seek retribution. The protection of witnesses will result in enormous costs, not only in the court itself but in the outcome after having to attend court. Has the Minister given any thought to the funding of that process?
Caroline Flint : I am pleased that the hon. Lady's area has finally applied for its first antisocial behaviour order. However, there may be some problems; I do not think she quite understands that, in applications for ASBOs heard in the civil court, one can use hearsay and professional witnesses. It is different for applications made to the criminal court.
As I said earlier, it would help if Members of Parliament took the opportunity to find out what is best practice elsewhere. As the hon. Lady said, antisocial behaviour is often about people living very close to those who are causing the problem. That is the very reason why hearsay and professional witnesses, such as police officers or housing officers, can be engaged to give evidence in the civil court.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor has indicated that he is keen to look at whether the special measures, such as using video, that are afforded to those in criminal proceedings could be afforded to witnesses in civil proceedings. There are measures in place for cases where someone's next-door neighbour might be the problem. The way to protect people in those circumstances is through hearsay and professional witnesses. However, we are mindful that on occasion individuals may need to come forward, and my right hon. and learned Friend has talked about considering special measures for people in that situation.
Mr. Tony McWalter (Hemel Hempstead) (Lab/Co-op): Does my hon. Friend not accept that the message, particularly on the availability of professional witnesses, is not getting across? When some hooligans were destroying a little shopping centre in my constituency,
28 Oct 2004 : Column 505WH
one of my constituents complained to the police, but all they said was, "Well, if you want to do anything about it, you'd better give us a camera with some film in it." So, my constituent got his camera and poked it out of the window the next time the kids were there, but they then reported him for paedophilia. The accusation was taken up by a separate police officer and went a long way before I intervened personally and stopped the nonsense. There is a long way to go before witnesses are given proper protection.
Caroline Flint : My hon. Friend raises an important point. When young people—or adults, for that matter—cause trouble in an area, the section 30 dispersal powers are available as well. Indeed, I know that he has had success in his area in that regard. We are trying to raise the benchmark on how all the measures to deal with antisocial behaviour are applied in England and Wales. In some areas, there has been astounding success, which has been achieved through effective partnership between a number of different agencies, engaging with and listening to the local community and also gaining people's trust, so that when they report incidents there is a method to collect that information so that it can be used in the courts.
A lot more has to be done, however. There is no doubt that those in management and supervisory positions, whether in the police service or local authorities, have to ensure that their front-line staff are aware of the powers that are in place, because it is important that people understand that the powers are there to be used. There is can-do attitude, which is demonstrated by the number of places where people are doing just that—getting on with the job and dealing with the problem. In doing so, they increase the confidence of the local community, not only in policing, but in all the other services with a role to play.
Breaches of orders
9. Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): How many antisocial behaviour orders have been breached in each year since 1999, and how many of those were punished with fines and how many with prison sentences? [193730]
The Minister for Children, Young People and Families (Margaret Hodge) : Breach data are available from June 2000 to December 2002. During that period, 372 breaches of ASBOs were recorded: 14 in 2000, 120 in 2001 and 238 in 2002. On punishment, in 2000, five received a fine, and five received a prison sentence. In 2001, 15 received a fine and 62 received a prison sentence and in 2002, 20 received a fine and 112 a prison sentence.
Andrew Selous : I am grateful to the Minister, but what advice would she give to my constituents who have suffered horrendous antisocial behaviour for the last couple of years and to the officers of the central division of Bedfordshire police who have wanted to impose ASBOs but, in collecting evidence, have sometimes found witnesses to be far too scared? That relates to the question of evidence, which we have dealt with. The Under-Secretary for the Home Department mentioned professional witnesses, so could the Minister say a bit
28 Oct 2004 : Column 506WH
more about that? From which agency of government or local authority department are professional witnesses supposed to spring?
Margaret Hodge : I would have hoped that the previous answer from my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary could have given comfort to the hon. Gentleman. Professional witnesses could be local authority officers, members of the police service or any of the professionals who are party to a case or have relevant evidence. Professional witnesses do not have to be the individuals who have experienced the antisocial behaviour, but professionals acting on behalf of those individuals. We have also talked about the steps that the Lord Chancellor hopes to take to enable people to give evidence in a more anonymous environment.
Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): May I ask the Minister to return to the question that I asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department? I listened carefully to the answer that I received.
My question concerned the relationship between the number of ASBO breaches and the number of reported breaches. It is not a trick question, but it is important to try to assess what is going on. I have received anecdotal information that when an ASBO is breached, it may be a considerable time before anything is done about it. Meanwhile, one gets complaints from members of the local community. It may also be the case that sometimes no action is taken on reported breaches of ASBOs. Is the Home Office collating statistical material on that matter and, if so, would it be possible to make that available to hon. Members so that we can make an assessment?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Caroline Flint) : As far as I am aware, information is not being collected centrally on anecdotal evidence about situations in which a police officer sees that an ASBO has been breached and does not report it, so that the breach does not go back to court. That is a rather convoluted situation. If the hon. Gentleman has evidence that ASBOs are being breached and action is not being taken, we would be open to receiving that evidence and information on where those cases are occurring. Our view is that if ASBOs are breached, that should be referred to the relevant authorities and the necessary proceedings should be followed.
If there is evidence of such situations occurring, it is important to bring that to the attention of the local senior police officers or others who are charged with the responsibility for that area. However, as I said earlier, one positive thing that we do know is that only about a third of all ASBOs are breached.
I would not want there to be confusion about the figures, because there are issues related to the number of people who have had ASBOs imposed on them, and the number of times that someone might breach an ASBO and be taken to court, resulting in a further action against them. There are the numbers of people and the numbers of breaches, but it is possible that an individual might, on occasion, commit more than one breach, which then would go back into the system and be dealt with again.
I will examine what the hon. Gentleman says in more detail. However, we do not collect data centrally on breaches that are not followed up by police officers on
28 Oct 2004 : Column 507WH
the ground, because that would be hard to do. However I will ask my hon. Friend the Minister for Crime Reduction, Policing and Community Safety about that matter and whether she has given it any attention.
Mr. David Watts (St. Helens, North) (Lab): My housing trust has a specialist unit. Is there a case for having specialist units in the police, and special courts to deal with the issue more effectively?
Caroline Flint : What we do have in some areas are special prosecutors. That was a result of recognising that, when the antisocial behaviour legislation was introduced, it was quite difficult to get those on the court side of the process to appreciate and understand what we meant by antisocial behaviour and its impact on local communities. That is one of the reasons why, in some areas, special prosecutors have been involved. It is also one of the reasons why my colleagues in the Department for Constitutional Affairs have been engaged in training with the clerks to the courts and magistrates, so that they understand better what is happening in local communities and how to deal with it.
Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): Just for the record, we did not oppose ASBOs, as the Minister for Rural Affairs and Local Environmental Quality said. However, I am sure that that will not make any difference to what he says in future.
There is a real issue about breaches of ASBOs. None of us wants to see such breaches, but one of the things that might increase the number of potential breaches is if ASBOs are overly prescriptive in terms of the prohibitions that are put into them. For example, there was the case of the 13-year-old who was told that he must not say the word "grass" anywhere in England and Wales for six years, or the 21-year-old who was told that he was not to wear any head gear under any circumstances, or the 88-year-old who was forbidden to be sarcastic to his neighbours and has now committed three breaches, which have presumably gone into the records. Is there a case for better guidelines on what should properly be included in ASBOs, so that they are focusing on real antisocial behaviour, rather than on what someone has in mind as a prejudice?
Caroline Flint : This is interesting, because I think that some of the ways in which ASBOs have been applied have been really creative. In some cases, the creative use of ASBOs has had more resonance with the young person as an immediate sanction for their offending behaviour than any bureaucratic blueprint that we could pull together about how they should operate. It is important to allow creativity so that people can get to the heart of the problem.
I have two things to say to the hon. Gentleman. First, an ASBO can be varied. That is important because if—[Interruption.] He says that they should be, and they can be. If, for example, a young person in respect of
28 Oct 2004 : Column 508WH
whom an ASBO has been issued improves their behaviour, there is room to vary the order. One young gentleman was prohibited from going into a certain area. During the period covered by the ASBO, he joined a local football team and a match took place in the area from which he was excluded. Quite rightly, it was asked why that young man, who was then engaged in positive behaviour, should be denied access to that area.
Secondly, as from 1 May this year, individual support orders can also be attached to ASBOs. ASBOs are about what one cannot do. Individual support orders are about trying to challenge behaviour. I do not agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman's point. We are dealing with the issue in a rounded way. We are stopping people doing certain things and challenging behaviour in the short and long term.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I do not think that my expectations as expressed at the beginning of questions have been fulfilled. Hon. Members will draw their conclusions when they read Hansard tomorrow. There is obvious tension between providing opportunities for supplementary questions and more than one ministerial answer, and making progress down the Order Paper. However, brevity should still be our watchword if we are to make a success of such sessions in future.
Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will know that Mr. Speaker deprecates the practice of Ministers making announcements outside the House of Commons when they should properly be making them here. We are having this sitting on antisocial behaviour orders this afternoon. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) made a very important point at the outset, which was that the Prime Minister is about to make a statement on that issue. It is stated in The Guardian no less—so some will believe that it must be true:
"Blair announces huge leap in Asbo programme".
We do not know whether what Ministers have told us today constitutes the full exposure of the announcement being made by the Prime Minister. Should the Prime Minister—
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that what Ministers say, and what any hon. Member says, cannot be controlled by the Chair. If he wishes to pursue the matter, that is probably better done by a point of order on the Floor of the House. All I can do is take the Chair at a sitting that has been arranged. Everything that has been said by every hon. Member and every Minister is on the record to be judged and perhaps, at a later time, questioned.
The Minister for Rural Affairs and Local Environmental Quality (Alun Michael) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I just point out that the level of ASBOs, which may well be referred to elsewhere, was given in my reply earlier?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : One must not, on a point of order, seek to pursue the argument.
28 Oct 2004 : Column 507WH
28 Oct 2004 : Column 509WH
| Next Section | Index | Home Page |