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Orders of the Day
Housing Bill
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): I inform the House that privilege is involved in Lords amendments Nos. 35, 36, 51, 52, 88, 101, 103, 105, 107, 186, 190, 191, 192 and 202. If the House agrees to any of these Lords amendments, I shall arrange for the necessary entries to be made in the Journal.
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The Minister for Housing and Planning (Keith Hill): I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
This amendment would place an obligation on the Secretary of State to take reasonable steps to ensure an increase of at least 20 per cent. in residential energy efficiency by 2010. I assure the House that the Government have absolutely no difficulty with the idea that residential energy efficiency should be increased. In debates on this issue in the other place, the Government were accused of weakening their position on that commitment, but I hope to be able to demonstrate the fallacy of that argument. I will also show that the amendment is unnecessary because existing legislation already provides the basis for setting and—just as important—reviewing energy efficiency aims.
The 2003 White Paper referred to savings of around 5 megatonnes of carbon as an indication of what we thought we could achieve at that time. With the benefit of further analysis, we have been honest enough to publicise a slightly lower figure. The energy efficiency plan of action, published last April by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, details measures that will deliver savings of 4.2, rather than 5, megatonnes of carbon in the residential sector.
Brian White (Milton Keynes, North-East) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Keith Hill: My hon. Friend knows that I am a big fan, but I would like to be allowed to develop my argument a little before I yield to him.
That figure is based on detailed analysis carried out following publication of the White Paper and reflects changes in economic and technical assumptions that came to light as a result of further work undertaken by DEFRA. So the Government have not sought to pull the wool over people's eyes on this issue. Indeed, the beauty of the figure of 4.2 megatonnes is that, at about 19 per cent., it is very close to the 20 per cent. improvement that this amendment seeks. Achieving 4.2 million tonnes of savings is in fact roughly equivalent to doubling the historic 1990s rate of energy efficiency improvement.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has declared an energy efficiency aim of 3.5 megatonnes of savings in England, under the Sustainable Energy
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Act 2003, as a contribution to the UK target of 4.2 megatonnes. The Act enables us to keep our aims under review, and improve on them where we can. DEFRA will consult shortly on the climate change programme review and we will also review our energy efficiency aim in 2007, as well as setting the target for the next phase of the energy efficiency commitment beginning in 2008. In other words, this is a constantly developing scene.
Savings of 4.2 megatonnes of carbon are not to be sniffed at, and they are not the whole story. The difference of 0.8 megatonnes between the White Paper and action plan figures will be more than compensated for by an increase in projected savings from the business and public sector. We estimate that the measures set out in the action plan will achieve carbon savings of around 12 million tonnes per annum by 2010 across all sectors. That is 20 per cent. greater than the original White Paper figure of 10 million tonnes and by 2010 is expected to save households and businesses more than £3 billion a year on their energy bills.
Mr. Tony McWalter (Hemel Hempstead) (Lab/Co-op): There is much in what my right hon. Friend says, but is he aware that any saving in energy not only saves carbon emissions, but potentially depresses the need for nuclear energy as part of our energy sources? I would be grateful if my right hon. Friend addressed that issue and not simply that of carbon emissions, important though it is.
Keith Hill: I take my hon. Friend's thoughtful point, but I am the Minister for Housing and Planning and I am addressing the issue in the context of housing. Wider issues of energy policy are not for me. I guarantee, however, that his observation will be reported to the Department for Trade and Industry, which has responsibilities in that area.
Mr. Simon Thomas (Ceredigion) (PC): The Minister has tried to claim that savings on carbon emissions from the industrial sector will offset the 16 per cent. cut—it is not a small cut—in the Government's initial target. However, that does not address the issue of fuel poverty and the warm homes initiative. If a 5 megatonnes saving had been the target, it would have provided the opportunity to deliver energy efficiency in the domestic sector with corresponding savings for some of the most deprived in our communities. I would not like the Government to lose sight of that aim.
Keith Hill:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his observation. I assure him that there is no danger of the relationship between energy efficiency and fuel poverty being ignored in the course of our deliberations. In fact, it is my expectation that we will be able to discuss those issues at some length and in detail in consideration of the third group of amendments, which includes proposals on the decent homes programme. He will be aware that we have to make a distinction between issues of energy use and energy loss and issues of income. There is not necessarily a direct and obvious relationship between the two, as I will seek to argue later.
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Brian White: In Committee, it was pointed out that there was a discrepancy in the way in which the figure of 4.2 megatonnes was calculated and the Minister who replied agreed to look at it again. What action has been taken to review the figure?
Keith Hill: I am certain that when Ministers make such undertakings they are followed up. I know that my hon. Friend has a deep interest in this issue—as is demonstrated by his legislative attempts—but the picture is shifting and evolving. As the technology changes, the opportunity for delivery occurs. I take his point, however, and I shall seek to ensure that those undertakings were properly pursued. I am sure that they were.
Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con): The picture is indeed shifting, but it is important for the House to be clear about it. In the other place, Lord Bassam said that the decent homes programme would reduce carbon emissions by at least 2 megatonnes. The Government's energy efficiency plan for action, however, claims that the decent homes programme will be responsible for 0.05 megatonnes. The position has shifted, but has it really shifted that much?
6 pm
Keith Hill: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will permit me two things: to develop the argument in my speech, which is primarily about energy efficiency; and to revert to the decent homes programme in our later exchanges. I am, however, grateful to him for putting the issue on the record. At an appropriate point, I might be better placed to answer it.
Ms Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) (Lab): A number of Members are obviously concerned about the amendment. I welcome my right hon. Friend's commitment to further review, but in the light both of debates on the Energy Bill and of the Environmental Audit Committee's recommendations to the Government, will he give the House an assurance that he will find some mechanism in the review to consider what his Department, DEFRA and the DTI are doing so that we can be certain that we have the best possible standards for dealing with energy efficiency as the cheapest, cleanest and safest way to reduce CO 2 emissions?
Keith Hill: I am happy to give my hon. Friend that assurance, and I do not do so in a facile fashion. This is an aspect of genuine joined-up government—to use that familiar and slightly cod phrase. Indeed, I recently met DEFRA Ministers precisely to discuss such issues. Other Ministers were present, as well as representatives from other Departments, so the issues are genuinely being addressed across the board, and I hope that my hon. Friend finds that, at least, reassuring.
I was setting out certain points about the progress that we have already made on the action plan and the objectives for energy and carbon savings, which go beyond those originally identified in the 2003 White Paper. It is important that those points are put on the record. They have certainly been raised in previous debates, but it does no harm to reiterate them. That is not all. More energy efficiency measures are being
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backed by firm policy commitments than ever before. I highlight two key measures: we expect condensing boilers to be installed faster under the 2005 building regulations than anticipated in the energy White Paper, and we expect installations of cavity wall insulation to more than double under the next phase of the energy efficiency commitment, which puts obligations on energy suppliers to achieve energy efficiency gains.
I regard the amendment as well intentioned but unnecessary and inflexible. We are already working towards its objective. Setting a numerical target in primary legislation will not help us to pursue an open, technically sound, evolving approach to the setting of objectives and targets.
Although I recognise the genuine interest in the issue shown by hon. Members on both sides of the House and have listened to debates in this place and read those that took place elsewhere, I have been struck by the approach of some Opposition Members. Their zeal for the amendment has not been matched by their approach to other provisions in the Bill that would in fact help their case. I am thinking particularly of the home condition reports that will form part of the home information packs under part 5. The EU directive on energy performance of buildings will make it compulsory for home sellers to provide energy efficiency information on their home to potential buyers. That is entirely reasonable. We know that most improvements to homes take place when keen new owners take over.
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