Examination of Witnesses (Questions 48-59)
29 JANUARY 2004
MR DAVID
WATTS, MR
NICK WHEELER
AND THE
REV JOHN
LEE
Q48 Chairman: Gentlemen, welcome
to the Committee. You have had an interesting afternoon listening
to comments about yourselves, especially Mr Wheeler. We had better
ask you some awkward questions to redress the balance, I think.
Mr Lee, I hope you have recovered from the road accident which
was referred to in your submission to us.
Rev John Lee: I am still recovering,
thank you.
Q49 Chairman: I think it would help
us at this stage to know slightly more about how it works when
seen from your end of the proceedings. We have had some very good
accounts of how it works from the parish end and from the bishop's
point of view. I suppose it is only fair to ask you initially
to describe the process, when you become aware of the vacancy,
by which you seek to match someone to that vacancy.
Mr Wheeler: The first thing that
actually happens is that I clarify with the bishop whether it
is to be a straightforward appointment or not because, in these
days, there is a lot of re-organisation taking place and I do
not make the assumption that it will be a straightforward appointment
so that is an opportunity for the bishop to say, "I would
like to do some pastoral re-organisation, therefore we would like
to consider the suspension of presentation". If we assume
there is to be a straightforward appointment then I write to the
outgoing incumbent and a letter to the PCC's secretary giving
them a form to complete explaining how the process for the vacancy
will work, inviting their comments, and for the PCC to elect two
representatives who may or may not be the churchwardens. I ask
them to produce a statement for tradition and needs, often called
the parish profile. When I receive that parish profile back I
begin the task of trying to find the right person for that. I
look initially at my own resources of clergy who have been in
touch with me over time who are looking for a move. A database
of something like 200 to 250 clergy are actively looking for a
move. I am getting new names all the time from the Clergy Appointments
Adviser on my left, the Reverend John Lee, and indeed from other
sources. I am trying to match the needs of the profile as specified
by the parish with those people I have met and hopefully finding
candidates or a candidate that match those. Having done that I
then write to the bishop with my suggestions commending the candidate
or candidates and inviting his comments.
Q50 Chairman: Is the first point
at which you involve the bishop?
Mr Wheeler: No. I have approached
the bishop to find out whether I can go ahead with the appointment
as a courtesy.
Q51 Chairman: Is that the first substantive
involvement?
Mr Wheeler: That is right. He
tells me to go ahead with it and that is when I do the consultation.
He then responds with his comments on the suitability or not of
the candidates and, because we by and large work on a one at a
time basis, we agree on the suitability or not and a kind of batting
order. I also ask him if he would like to suggest any candidates
that he may have from his own sources that might be suitable in
terms of he appointment because he will have had a copy of the
profile, so we are drawing people in from the bishop as well.
I then approach the preferred candidate that we have agreed between
us to see whether or not they are interested. I write them a letter,
I give them a copy of the profile and if they are interested,
assuming I have already interviewed them, I then put them in touch
with the parish representatives. I invite them to go and visit
the benefice to meet the parish representatives. The candidate
then goes off and sees someone from the diocese, normally the
bishop but sometimes it is the archdeacon. Only when those three
parties—the candidate, the parish representatives and the
bishop and/or archdeacon come back to me and say, "I would
like the appointment to proceed" do I make the formal recommendation
to the Lord Chancellor or the Crown that the person is offered
the appointment. If any of those parties come back to me to say,
"I do not think this is right" then we proceed to the
next candidate. I am looking for unanimity normally rather than
a simple majority.
Q52 Chairman: Does the bishop often,
either at the earlier stage or at that last stage, say, "No,
I do not like your nomination; I do not think he is suitable"?
Mr Wheeler: Hopefully he will
do it at the earlier stage.
Q53 Chairman: Does it often happen?
Mr Wheeler: It does happen from
time to time, yes. If I am sending four or five candidates he
may think there are two or three strong candidates; he may think
that another candidate is marginal; and he may think the other
candidates, for various reasons—he may know them—are
not appropriate or he may make some overtures to the bishop in
that particular diocese to find out more and decide on the basis
of that information that the person really would not match that
profile.
Q54 Chairman: Do you often argue
with the bishop about his view?
Mr Wheeler: No, there is no argument.
We seem to work well together with all the bishops.
Q55 Chairman: The bishop is given
several names. Why should the parish not get several names in
this process?
Mr Wheeler: We work on the one
at a time basis on the basis that we are going for the best person,
judged by the bishop and myself at that particular juncture. We
have, on occasions, gone down a different road whereby we have
offered the parish four or five candidates. I have to say it is
not necessarily easy. As people have been pointing out there is
a dearth of clergy, particular for some of the parishes that we
have. Finding the four or five candidates is not always easy,
particularly for some of the inner city parishes we are dealing
with or some of the deep country parishes. If it is a country
town with one parish and one church it is easier. Indeed, although
we do not regularly advertise, we have tried advertising with
mixed success as well. It is not as though we are closed to other
ways of going about things, but we do find that the one at a time
system by and large does work very well.
Q56 Chairman: If you were in any
other part of government and you went along to the Public Appointments
Commissioner and said, "We have tried advertising with mixed
results", you would be told to continue advertising because
it is an open point of access. You would never get away with saying
that you had mixed results so it is not worth bothering. Why do
you not advertise as a matter of course?
Mr Wheeler: There are a number
of reasons behind it. One is that the one at a time system does
give time for a process of discernment.
Q57 Chairman: The one at a time system
would not preclude advertising.
Mr Wheeler: You are suggesting
that we advertise and then still entertain the one at a time system.
Q58 Chairman: Yes.
Mr Wheeler: The cost of the advertising
would be born by the parishes and it is something we have done
in the past. I have to say, when we tried it with one what I would
call ordinary living, a country town with team rectorships, it
elicited a response from four people, two of whom then withdrew
and we were down to two. We re-advertised it and had a further
person. It does not necessarily attract the large numbers of candidates
that a lot of parishes would think that advertising does. You
often see in the Church Times—which I regularly scan—appointments
being re-advertised. It is a way but it is certainly not the only
way. I think if parishes were to ask us to go down that route
then we would seriously have to consider it; we are open to that
possibility, but it does not necessarily overcome the problem.
Q59 Chairman: Is it generally known
amongst clergy that they could put themselves on your list, as
it were?
Mr Wheeler: There is no Anglican
clergyman who cannot put himself on our list. As long as they
have been ordained and priested for three years we will take them.
The only reason for that stipulation is that we are dealing with
incumbencies not curacies. In order to take on an incumbency the
Church has its own rules and regulations that a person must have
been ordained and priested generally for at least three years.
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