Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60
- 67)
TUESDAY 24 FEBRUARY 2004
PHILIP ELY
OBE, AND CLARE
DODGSON
Q60 Mr Soley: Do you think other
legal providers could be worried about growth in the telephone
or Money Claim On-line approach inasmuch as it could eat into
their market, particularly if it takes more legalistic cases?
Ms Dodgson: I do not think experience
bears that out. If you look at the Financial Services Industry,
if you look at NHS Direct there is a place for everybody. What
it does is it frees up the expert specialists to do what only
they can do and what they do best. Also, and very importantly
to me, it helps clients who have relatively straightforward but
terribly, terribly troubling problems to them get them sorted
out quickly because litigation is not necessarily the best thing.
I can give anecdotes where I have been out in frontline offices,
for example a woman in Basildon I was dealing with was claiming
a crisis loan because she had her purse snatched, she borrowed
a small amount of money from a door-to-door lender and when she
made her claim she was paying back a relatively small amount of
cash to you and I but a huge amount out of her disposable income.
She did not need to go to court, she needed somebody to help her
out with her debt and re-negotiate with this lender. Doing that
quickly before that debt compounded itself over weeks and months
was obvious to me in the Basildon frontline office, that was more
important than trying to help this woman litigate for £200
that was being repaid at £8 a week.
Q61 Mr Soley: You have not said anything
about Money Claim On-line, the reason I want to push you on it
is it seems to me that people cannot put a money value on something
that has happened to them, be it an accident or some other dispute
which has arisen and if they can do that, although not everyone
has access to computers, you could, (a) expect it to grow and
(b) you could make that service available to them in other centres
where someone could help them through it so that the claim could
be lodged there and then even if the person themselves did not
have either the technical skills nor even the social skills themselves
to follow that through to the required level. With a bit of help
you can lodge the claim in that way, is that not possible?
Ms Dodgson: Yes, I think that
is a very practical proposition and it is part of looking across
at how we help people get access and how we use advisers and how
we facilitate people to help people to help themselves.
Q62 Mr Soley: What about Money Claim
On-line, is that possible?
Ms Dodgson: We will be looking
at that as part of our planning to expand different ways of getting
access to help and advice. Money Claim On-line is a big success,
the other one I would highlight is the work we are doing with
the DTI to have one single telephone number for people to ring,
a local access number for debt problems, because at the minute
there is a plethora of different telephone lines and different
sources of advice. Money Claim On-line has rightly won accolades
and we would want to build on that and expand that. As you say
people may find they need a bit of help to do that and we would
certainly want to look at that too.
Mr Soley: It needs advertising.
Q63 Chairman: Since everyone has
managed to use practical examples from their own areas perhaps
you will get in touch with me to explain why according to evidence
we have been given there is no housing legal aid provider in the
county of Northumberland?
Ms Dodgson: I think we have good
news on that.
Q64 Chairman: You have been saving
that good news.
Ms Dodgson: We have good news
in various places about new people wanting to come in to the market.
I will come back to you on that one.
Q65 Peter Bottomley: I have three
very brief things to mention, one is to say I am glad you referred
in your evidence to justask.org.uk, which I think would be of
advantage to people if they do not confuse it with ask.co.uk.
The second point is if anyone asks you whether the way you presented
your evidence on paper was well received the answer is yes, the
summary at the front and the appendices at the back is done in
a way which I think is exemplary and others could copy. The last
thing to say is in the reference to the MMR case the fact that
you did not provide funding to continue the claim I think was
a good thing and people now realise it.
Ms Dodgson: Thank you very much,
Mr Bottomley, could I just pay tribute to my team who prepared
the evidence, they put a lot of work and effort in to making sure
we hope we gave you what you wanted, the credit ought not to go
to myself and Philip but ought to go to some of my colleagues
behind me.
Q66 Chairman: It will be very helpful
to us as will your evidence this morning. Thank you very much
indeed.
Mr Ely: Can I mention one thing
that is not in answer to a question, it is a point which has lurked
beneath the surface and I am anxious that it is known about in
relation to the development of Community Legal Services, when
it all began I think there was an assumption that we would fund
work and we would be able to draw in—inevitably Europe is
mentioned—from here, there and everywhere but of course
money is tight everywhere. The reality is that the operation of
the CLS has meant that we are actually bringing in through the
Partnerships really quite a significant amount of additional funding.
I would say in London we were able to pull in an extra £2
million from other places last year and that pattern is being
repeated round the country. I mention it not in terms of money
but also in terms of thinking because so many of you have been
concerned about access points, where it is and the reality of
it. I believe that is an emerging part of the pattern that frankly
I am very anxious that you should know about. That is something
which came out in our discussions yesterday, I am not sure it
is in the evidence.
Chairman: If you want to give us any
more by all means do.
Q67 Ross Cranston: Is there a chance
of getting an early view of the Matrix research which I see is
going to be published in April 2004 on the independent review
of the Community Legal Service?
Mr Ely: That is down to the Department,
sorry.
Ms Dodgson: We will check for
you.
Mr Ely: It is not in our gift,
if that is the right word.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
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