Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240
- 259)
TUESDAY 27 JANUARY 2004
SPORT ENGLAND
Q240 Derek Wyatt: On the changes
that you have made to Sport England, why do you think it took
so long to recognise that the participation rates were so low?
Are you confident now that we will get a fitter nation?
Mr Draper: Again in terms of the
figures, one of the first things that we actually did when we
came into Sport England was to understand our customer base, and
whilst the 0.3% increase in participation across the board is
widely noted, we dread to think what that would be like if the
investment had not gone in. In terms of Sport England and the
lottery funded projects, we have through our research found that
in those projects where there has been funding there has been
a 143% increase in usage. Again I think it highlights the fact
that we are only really scratching the surface across the board
and that if we are going to hit the targets groups that we want
to hit—we know there are 20% of people in this country who
are what we class as sporty types, we know that there are
another 20% at the other end of the extreme that probably fit
into the sort of couch potato category; it is the 44% who
are what we call on the subs' bench that we have to convert
to getting active, doing 30 minutes a day, because we certainly
feel that sport can contribute, not just in terms of winning medals
on the elite side, but also to the health of the nation. Obviously
that is going to come to the fore this year with the Chief Medical
Officer's report, and so on.
Q241 Derek Wyatt: Looking at some
individual sports, I notice that in Premier Rugby the players
have in their contracts that they must spend 20 hours a month
in schools. Kids like heroes, and I suspect that is a good idea.
In the elite programme that you fund is it also in the contract
that those elite athletes must also spend an equivalent amount
of time a month in schools so that kids can also rub shoulders
with these gold medal winners?
Mr Draper: I think it has been
an area of weakness in the past. Certainly we have tightened up,
if you like, the obligations on the athletes who are receiving
funding, and we have a scheme called Sporting Champions which
is really about getting local heroes as well as national heroes
out into those local communities, and we have seen quite a significant
impact in terms of young people in particular being inspired,
but again—I think a point that was made earlier with regard
to recognising the contribution that the lottery can make—we
knew that the recognition improved significantly after the Sydney
Olympics when we did well from the medal camp because a lot of
the athletes were talking about, "We could not have done
this without the lottery", but how many people know that
£8 million of investment went into the England Rugby World
Class programme to make them number one in the world, to get them
winning the World Cup and to develop the academies with the premiership
club. So again it has got to be twin-track. It has to be about
the local community as well as making England the most successful
sporting nation in the world.
Q242 Derek Wyatt: But the people
who came earlier from the two boards said that no-one really understands
what the lottery has done in communities. There is not enough
awareness. Do you think that perhaps the lottery ought to do,
as well as the big game programmes, perhaps a monthly half an
hour show that it might fund itself that actually tells the success
stories of what the lottery does in the UK? Have you put that
to them, or have you considered that yourself?
Mr Draper: That is one area where
we are working closely with the new joint promotional unit to
get that recognition at a local level as well a national level.
I think, if you look at some of the recent campaigns, they have
actually focused on, in particular, local community sports schemes
as well as showing whether funding is going towards elite success
as well.
Q243 Chris Bryant: Potentially the
Olympics, if it ends up being held in the UK, offers enormous
opportunities, not least in terms of getting lots of volunteers
from all round the country to help staff the event and so on.
At what point would you start working with the British Olympic
association to make sure that the plans are ones that are going
to work in terms of finance?
Mr Draper: We are already working
extremely closely with the British Olympic Association and a number
of other sporting bodies, and we know from the success of the
Commonwealth Games that it is not just about producing a world
class event. It is also about winning medals, it is also about
regeneration and, perhaps most importantly, it is about being
the guardians of legacy. I have been up in Manchester on quite
a few occasions in recent months looking at the legacy of the
Commonwealth Games in terms of getting young people involved in
sport, whether that is activity buses, whether that is the new
athletics arena that opened last week, whether that is the gymnastics
centre at Gorton that got the gymnastics equipment. So it is not
just about winning the bid, it is also about the investment in
elite sport, but, perhaps most importantly, it is about the legacy.
We are very supportive of the Olympic bid, but we also want to
see a long and lasting legacy for sport in this country.
Q244 Chris Bryant: You may be losing
out financially by virtue of the Olympic bids because of the way
the figures are all going to be readjusted—the amount of
money that is going to be disappearing from your cause presumably
as well as others—so as to fund the Olympic bid itself.
Is there not a danger in the meantime that what that will mean
is that the grass roots organisations which have to feed through
into providing all these world class sports people in the future
are going to lose out?
Mr Carter: I think that is, of
course, the issue we face, and, you know, the amount of money
that we are going to get is forecast to decline. I think the question
we have to face is how to get money from other sources therefore.
Sport is very much on the agenda now. If you think back, it has
probably never been quite so much in the public eye, what with
the success of the rugby and the Commonwealth Games, etcetera.
I think the Olympics has propelled that to a new height. So I
think what we are hoping is that that raised awareness nationally
is going to propel more money into sport.
Q245 Chris Bryant: You said—and
I will not take great umbrage at it—that about £8 million
spent on the English Rugby Team—
Mr Flook: They won.
Chris Bryant: Of course, they won. I
did spot that, and I was very pleased.
Chairman: Stop bickering!
Chris Bryant: Then you moved on to the
point about your ambition is to make England the most successful
sporting nation in the world?
Rosemary McKenna: He is Sport England!
Q246 Chris Bryant: I know, and I
understand that, but in the run up to the Olympic bid the priorities
have to change somewhat, do they not? Because it is about the
UK bid, and if we are going to win the Olympic bid one of the
things that we have to prove is that it is the whole of the UK,
the whole of the nation, that is behind the bid. Does that provide
any challenges for you?
Mr Draper: I think the first point
revolves around devolution. In fact, I meet regularly with my
colleagues from Scotland, Wales and Ireland on a regular basis,
and whilst everyone's role is to get the England Football Team
winning, or to win an individual sport, ultimately our goal is
to provide success on the UK stage, you know, winning gold medals
at the Olympics as well, and we have to make sure that England,
Scotland, Wales and Ireland are working closely together to achieve
that goal whilst also understanding that individually we want
to win at the Commonwealth Games and we want to win in our devolved
sports as well. The Olympics has been a very good focal point
to bring the home countries much closer together to achieve that
common vision.
Q247 Chris Bryant: When we looked
at swimming—we did report a couple of years ago now—we
found there was quite a sharp difference between the desire to
get as many people swimming and leading a healthy lifestyle as
possible and enabling 40, 20 swimmers to plough up and down for
hours, and hours, and hours. Is that true in other sports and
how do we resolve that in swimming?
Mr Draper: I think swimming is
a very good example, because one of the things we have done this
year is we have prioritised our sports. Activity and success,
in many respects, are very different things. Swimming is actually
one of the highest participation sports, and we have seen a 16%
increase this year in terms of the numbers of people participating
in swimming, but it is also a sport we are becoming successful
in as well. Bill Sweden, the new performance director, over the
last few years has made significant shifts and we can now hold
our head up quite high and say, you know, "We are one of
the world leaders in the swimming stakes." Obviously we have
got to deliver in Sydney, but there are other sports. Rowing is
a good example where, whilst the ARA—the Amateur Rowing
Association—are doing a great deal of work in local communities
trying to get more people rowing, it is never going to be a mass
participation sport. However, we are successful at rowing. Basketball,
which has huge potential in local communities, but we are 24th
in Europe currently.
Q248 Chris Bryant: But the Rhondda
Rebels play everything going.
Mr Draper: That is the balance
we have got to get, and what we have to do is make sure we get
good returns on investment and we get bangs for bucks. What we
do know through our research on activity is that we are probably
going to get most gain around informal sporting activity, such
as swimming, cycling, outdoor pursuits, extreme sports with young
people, but at the same time we have also got to concentrate on
delivering success in our traditional sports as well, and that
means England winning in Portugal in the summer, it means a successful
Olympic Games, and it also means that our success in the Rugby
World Cup is not just a blip in history, that we go on and win
the next world cup and the one after that as well.
Q249 Chris Bryant: I know you are
trying to do two things which seem mutually exclusive and you
are trying to say that they are not mutually exclusive; in fact,
they are bound together, but my own experience as a constituency
MP—obviously I am Wales and you are England—is that
the difficulties that local amateur clubs face just in terms of
having pitches that are in decent nick that do not waterlog too
frequently so they can play on a regular basis, in terms of getting
kit for youngsters and all these different things, especially
in deprived communities, still that is where the real emphasis
needs to be. Sometimes our obsession with winning medals seems
to get in the way of that because the money then just is not there
for the grass roots.
Mr Carter: We have tried to strike
a balance to face that issue. Historically, 80% of our money has
gone out into the community, not into the grand projects. We are
trying to maintain that balance. We always have to be aware of
that. We would not want to walk away from national projects because
they are extremely important for setting the stage. Our fundamental
aim is to get the infrastructure working the whole time out there
so that people can participate.
Mr Draper: It is also striking
a balance between community sport and elite. One of the things
in our new direction is looking very much at multi-use sports
facilities that can be used for community use and elite athletes.
I was in Portsmouth last week and there were 300 gymnasts in the
gymnastics hall, at one end three year olds doing forward rolls
and at the other end there was a young girl preparing for Athens.
We have to dispel the myth that we just need elite sports facilities
or we just need community sports facilities. If we are looking
at the usage, we have to strike a balance between them all because
there are only so many hours in the day when elite sports people
can train.
Q250 Mr Doran: Can you say a little
about the Government's request that the Sports Council put £340
million into the pot for the Olympics? For example, what consultations
were there before that figure was arrived at?
Mr Draper: We had obviously worked
closely with the Government on those figures. We were seeking
clarity in terms of the sort of funding package. We always recognised
that sports lottery distributors would contribute to the bid.
As it happens, from a Sport England perspective, we traditionally
contribute about 83%. That is why in our cash flows out of the
£340 million we are looking at £282 million through
Sport England. We cash flowed that in and we felt comfortable
with that. Where we are seeking further clarity from government
is that if you assume £750 million will come from the Olympic
lottery fund, £340 million from the sports lottery, there
is a potential nought to £410 million that will come from
other lottery good causes. Where we have not received clarity
is on whether we are going to get hit with a double whammy and
that comes through sport as well, or sport's contribution is the
£340 million and the other contribution is coming from arts,
heritage and other good causes.
Q251 Mr Doran: You have anticipated
my next question because I was going to ask how it was split up.
I am a Scottish MP so I am interested in how much is coming into
the pot from Scotland. Was it done on a Barnet formula basis of
10.8% coming from Scotland and 7% or thereabouts from Wales and
so on?
Mr Draper: Yes.
Q252 Mr Doran: In terms of where
that money is going, is it a direct transfer from your budget
into the Olympic budget, however that is made up, or will you
be spending money in kind? Will any facilities that you provide
for the Olympics count as part of your contribution?
Mr Carter: As we see it at the
moment, we want to finance specific projects and the first of
these potentially is the aquatic centre, but we want our money
specifically linked to a project that is identifiable, particularly
because we want to ensure the legacy. We want to track that and
make sure it is the right formula in subsequent years.
Q253 Mr Doran: The money that you
spend on that will count towards the £283 million?
Mr Carter: Yes.
Q254 Mr Doran: One of the issues
for me as an MP from Scotland, particularly from the far north
of Scotland, is what do we get out of this. That is the sort of
question my constituents ask me. One of the things that has been
flagged up as a possibility is that areas like my own, Aberdeen,
might be able to attract some of the pre-Olympics training teams.
We are going to need investment to have the facilities to offer
to potential customers. Have you a programme for developing that?
I am talking in the Scottish context but obviously the same issues
apply in England. How is that going to be affected because that
will require some extra funding, I am sure.
Mr Draper: The training venues
and the legacy around the country are obviously things that we
are extremely interested in. Indeed, because of the forward planning
involved in the Olympic Games, we have committed £5 million
to the Weymouth Sailing Academy because that is a potential venue
and the work needs to start now. Similarly with the Commonwealth
Games, whilst the majority of funding was in the Manchester area,
all projects locally like the Bolton Arena were funded, and Bisley
which was for shooting. Whilst those training venues have not
as yet been identified and we have a network in place through
facilities, whether that be Loughborough, Bath and so on, there
is a lot of work that needs to go on to identify those facilities,
whether they be in Scotland, England, Wales or Ireland.
Q255 Mr Doran: I do not know how
many teams take part in the Olympics. It may be 60 or 70 or maybe
more. Potentially, there is that number of local authorities that
will be knocking on your door asking for some help to upgrade
their facilities to attract these teams so that they can get a
share of the benefit. What is your strategy for that?
Mr Draper: There are not enough
venues to go round for the number of teams. That is where we have
to get the twin track investment taking place. We have to make
sure we balance the Olympic facilities, the training facilities,
as well as the local community development. The Olympics will
be a catalyst if we can get everyone behind that for more investment
into sport locally as well.
Q256 Mr Doran: On a completely different
tack, two or three years ago Sport England were coming to talk
to us about Wembley. Have you managed to put that saga behind
you? What lessons have you learned?
Mr Carter: We carry the scars,
I suppose. We have learned how to assess major projects, to ask
the right questions and to put in place now control mechanisms
to make sure they get delivered. It has been a long journey. As
we see the arch going up in the next four weeks, I think we will
begin to see the beginning of the payback.
Q257 Charles Hendry: Mr Carter, you
were saying a little earlier that there was a need to propel more
money into sport from other sources. What do you have in mind
for that? Are you looking at other aspects of government funding?
Are you looking at business? Are you looking at individuals? What
are you doing about finding those sources and making the money
come through?
Mr Carter: First of all, we do
have to look right the way across sport business. The whole area
of sponsorship is developing but probably has not developed fast
enough. Around the Olympics we are going to see more of that.
It is a uniquely iconic event. Also, we are having a number of
discussions with various government bodies on how to get private
money in to support their programmes, particularly community programmes.
There is a growing awareness in corporate Britain and in individuals
that they can make a great difference by investing in communities
through sport. That is something we are talking to governing bodies
about: things like the Football Foundation, the foundations, how
these things become a mechanism for drawing in more money. We
are advanced on that and we would like to see that go further.
Clearly, as regards public money, we are entering SR2004. As the
lead body for sport, we have to make the case to get more money
in, to improve the exchequer funding, particularly if we are setting
our stall out to bid for the Olympics. We have to make sure that
domestically we have the right infrastructure and that infrastructure
which we already have is maintained to a sufficiently high standard
to make sure people want to go and use it.
Q258 Charles Hendry: Do you pay the
full rate of VAT on sports construction?
Mr Carter: Yes. On a new sports
building, I think we do. I will verify that.
Derek Wyatt: You do.
Q259 Charles Hendry: As far as individuals
are concerned, would your advice be to them not to play the lottery
and put their money straight into the sporting facilities?
Mr Carter: No. I think people
should support the lottery. (a) They get to support a good cause
and (b) they have a chance of winning, which is probably the thing
that mostly drives it.
| 
