Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280
- 299)
TUESDAY 3 FEBRUARY 2004
HERITAGE LOTTERY
FUND AND
UK SPORT
Q280 Chris Bryant: How much more
should you get? Should it be 20%, should it be 25%, and, if so,
then it has got to come from somewhere else at a time when there
are diminishing amounts of money coming to all the distributors?
Ms Campbell: I do understand that.
I am sure my colleagues on my right will kick me firmly under
the table. I am not suggesting that we would wish to see a diminution
of other people's impact, but I think there are areas where we
can add value, particularly round health, environment and education
and, indeed, on crime and law and order. What that amount is I
think is more a discussion topic in which we would want to engage
with others. I do not really want to throw you a percentage.
Q281 Chris Bryant: A very political
politic answer. One part of the Olympics coming, or the Olympic
bid, everybody has told us already, is that we are going to enthuse
many more young people around the country to be involved in sport;
but that is not going to happen by accident, is it? I presume
that part of that is the responsibility of Sport England, and
in Wales and so on, part of it is the responsibility of the British
Olympic Association, but part of this must fall to you as well?
Ms Campbell: If we go back to
the analogy that we are working at that cutting-edge of performance,
I think there are two or three ways we would like to feel we could
have impact. You are quite right that that community investment
and those community programs lie very much with the home countries,
but because we fund our elite athletes and because we also attract
international events to the UK there are ways we can have a major
influence. May I give you a few examples? I think we know that
our elite athletes can act as an inspiration and a role model,
but that does not happen in isolation; and what is important is
that we build strong development programs around any visits that
they make or any interventions that they make to ensure that when
they inspire youngsters there is somewhere to inspire them to
go to; it is not just an inspiration that is there for a few moments
and then lost. So I think that helping our sports, particularly
those are successful in the Olympics, build off that . . . I can
give you the example of the world rugby. You know that the response
was fantastic when they came home, and they have planned now a
"Sweet Chariot" tour of the UK where they are going
to take the world cup round, not only to inspire young people—
Q282 Chris Bryant: The UK or of England?
Ms Campbell: Of England, sorry,
of England, not only to inspire young people but also to encourage
young people to join clubs and to get into sustainable opportunities.
I think the other area that we can really help with is if we take
the Birmingham World Indoor Athletics Championships that we helped
achieve, in terms of getting that for this country, but then worked
closely with Birmingham in staging those—that event itself
acted as a great stimulus for schools in and around the Birmingham
area, and we have got a piece of research which looked at the
wider impact of that event. I think there are many pieces of work
that we do that can lend their support to increasing participation.
Q283 Chris Bryant: How much of the
£340 million that will be going to the Olympics will come
from you?
Mrs Nicholl: As I understand it,
Sport England is budgeting at 80%, about 83% of that, about £280
million.
Q284 Chris Bryant: Coming from them?
Mrs Nicholl: Yes, Sport England,
and they have already provided much of that within their budget
to 2009, as I understand it, so that leaves £60 million to
be found across the rest of the UK between the other sports fund
distributors. It is the—
Q285 Chris Bryant: So we might have
the Olympics, but we might not have any money to pay for any of
our elite athletes?
Mrs Nicholl: That is the concern
that the home countries have at this point in time. We are working
with them to identify what their serious concerns are, because
there are several impacts that there will be on the lottery sports
fund. One is the lottery game and the transference of funding
from purchasers, and the other is the amount of £340 million
that needs to be found from the lottery sports fund; so a percentage
of the £60 million over and above what Sport England is contributing.
Then, if there is still a shortfall of £410 million, if £750
million is required from the lottery and there is a realignment
of the percentages post 2009, that again will have an impact on
current income coming in. So we do have some concerns, looking
at the whole picture of funding available for sport, and, if we
are determined to put on a successful Olympics, we must ensure
that there is appropriate investment in our athletes to perform
there; and that is eight years on, so there is a big investment
required.
Q286 Chris Bryant: I am sure we would
all agree with that. Can I move on to Heritage. One of the things
that you have highlighted in recent years—you have done
quite a lot about "hot spots", which are "cold
spots", I guess, areas where there has been very little Heritage
monies going in, and I just wonder what you have done precisely
to achieve that and where you still think there is more work to
be done?
Ms Forgan: It is a very tricky
thing to manage. It is no good just posting off cheques. If you
do that, you waste the money and you reinforce failure. It is
a long job, and we have approached it in a number of ways. First
of all, we physically devolved our administration, our organisation,
so that the teams of officers and, indeed, Committee members,
who make the decisions about investment now dwell in the regions
with which they are concerned, which means that they are very
much closer to the real life of those places. Secondly, we invested
money in something we had never had before, which was a development
function. So in each one of those regions there are one, or two,
or three people whose task is explicitly to go and be proactive,
to work on the ground with groups, to build capacity, to explain
to people what we can do, to transmit the message that our definition
of heritage is extremely wide and that it can take in all manner
of things which had meaning and value in the past for people today;
and I am happy to say that it is working. We are seeing, in places
that have never made applications to the Heritage Lottery Fund
before, quite extraordinary responses to that. Once people get
the idea that heritage is not all about historic buildings and
old masters, but it actually is about their own lives, fascinating
ambitions appear, and I am simply delighted with the progress.
It is a wonderful thing, but it also gives us a problem because
it is boosting demand, as it were, at the bottom end of applications
to us at a time when we are looking at fairly strict limits to
our income.
Q287 Chris Bryant: Do you worry that
Britain is a bit obsessed with its heritage and sometimes it tries
to place everything around it in aspic? Is there a danger—and
I am mixing my metaphors horribly now—that if we keep on
devoting so much time and energy to preserving the past, we will
set up a whole series of capital projects which have not got enough
revenue funding for the future, and actually, if sport is needing
some more money, maybe we should be taking it from Heritage?
Ms Forgan: In the first place,
we absolutely resolutely do not fund aspic. That is a really serious
point. Secondly, the sustainability of our projects is a key consideration
for us, and I think, if you look at the record of the Heritage
Lottery Fund, you will actually see quite a remarkable degree
of success in terms of projects, tiny and enormous. We have had
few, if any, failures because we pay so much attention at the
start to who is going to sustain this project in the future. Thirdly,
I resist your notion that we are obsessed with the past and backward-looking.
Our whole focus is not on buildings in the past, it is on people
and the future; and the use and the role and the meaning of the
heritage asset for the future is in our decision to support it.
Q288 Chris Bryant: So is heritage
the wrong word?
Ms Forgan: Well, when I started
this job I thought, "I hate this word. Let us do something
about it." Then I realised that to you cannot change a word,
so what we are after is trying to change its meaning.
Q289 Mr Doran: Can I dig a little
into the impact of the Olympics on your funding, particularly
referring this to Heritage. From your own submission to the Committee,
you mentioned that in 2005-06 the DCMS estimate is that your income
will reduce by £7 million as a direct consequence, but, as
I understand it, the DCMS estimates are that that will accelerate
and that the greatest loss will be closer to the games—2010,
2011 and 2012. Have you done any figures to see what impact that
will have on you?
Ms Souter: Yes, and we have got
some slightly later figures since the evidence was produced on
the latest DCMS forecast.
Q290 Mr Doran: Can you speak up just
a little?
Ms Souter: I am sorry. Our latest
figures suggest that we will lose £22.7 million in the period
to 2009, which, of course, is the end of the licence period. We
fully accept that DCMS' view is correct and that the loss will
increase thereafter. I think it is very likely that as we get
closer to the games the new Olympic lottery games will be more
appealing to people. They will see the point more readily. We
do make some estimate of that, but frankly, until we get to the
point of seeing how the games are actually running, it will be
very difficult to make a firm estimate. Of course that is after
the end of the current period anyway, so the Department will have
made its disposition of resources for the future about that.
Ms Forgan: As Carole has indicated,
that would be a substantial cost to us at the same time as we
are having this discussion about interest on the balances, but
we regard it as a great opportunity as well. If Britain gets the
Olympics it will be a showcase, not only for our sport, but also
for our culture and for our heritage. I think it is really important
that we take a positive view of it, as we do, and look upon it
as an opportunity to invest in the culture and heritage, and also,
particularly if the games are spread around the country—football,
for example, is planning to spread around outside London—it
is a real opportunity, from our point of view, to demonstrate
the wealth and Britain's culture as well.
Q291 Mr Doran: I understand that.
Let me concentrate on the finances a little, because there is
also the question of the contribution which has to come from existing
lottery sources to the cost of the Olympics. We heard last week
from Sport England—I think Mrs Nicholl has just repeated
that—that £340 million is to be provided by the sports
lottery distributors, but that leaves £410 million to be
provided by the other lottery distributors. Have you been told
what your share of that will be?
Ms Souter: No, and our understanding
of that is that that will be raised after the 2009 period. So
we are not currently expecting that that will influence the period
over the next four or five years, and obviously that will be part
of the re-examination of the funding streams generally for the
lottery after 2009.
Q292 Mr Doran: We have heard from
two of the sports distributors and they have a clear idea of exactly
how much they are involved, even if it is deferred until after
2009. Do you have a clear idea?
Ms Souter: Well, on the basis
that we currently receive a sixth of the income, I think we would
work on the basis that if that extra money was required we would
probably—
Q293 Mr Doran: What would that be?
£65 million, that sort of level, getting up towards £67
million?
Ms Souter: Yes.
Q294 Mr Doran: Okay. That is quite
a lot of money. Picking up Liz Forgan's point about the opportunity
that the Olympics presents, presumably you will have some investment,
or some projects which will be considered for investment, as part
of the show-casing. My constituency is in Aberdeen, so I need
to be sure that we are going to get some benefit from all of this.
You will not be spending money in Aberdeen, because we have our
own Heritage distributor in Scotland, but as far as the . . .
Sorry, go on?
Ms Forgan: Could I explain a little
bit about how we are structured in respect of the devolved administrations?
We devolve to the countries and regions of England every project
under £2 million, but with the enthusiastic agreement of
the devolved administrations I think it would be fair to say we
operate absolutely on a UK-wide basis when it comes to major grants,
and so Scotland, Aberdeen possibly but certainly Scotland, has
had more than its per capita share of access to the big
pot because we retain this UK structure.
Q295 Mr Doran: You are absolutely
right to correct me on that. Let me take the question in two parts
then. First, are you working now on specific projects which will
have a funding implication? Obviously we do not know yet whether
we are going to be successful in the bid, but do you have an outline
of what extra monies you expect to spend which could be seen to
be related to the Olympics?
Ms Souter: We do not currently.
We have a range of projects that are taking place obviously across
London and in the various cities which might be hosts for various
aspects of the games. What we will then do is work alongside the
other lottery distributors to look at the programme of cultural
activities that will take place in the run up to the Olympics
themselves. We are all obviously thinking about that at the moment,
but I think, until we have a clear view of the programme as a
whole, we are not sure how each of us will be contributing to
that. For example, we are all going to look at the venues, the
London-based venues, next week and we will be developing our plans
together on that.
Q296 Mr Doran: The second part of
my question was the regions. There is concern that this will be
seen to be London centered and there will be very little benefit
for other regions, so it is quite important that that point is
stressed. Again, do you have a strategy for your contribution
to the regional improvement?
Ms Souter: I think there are two
strands. First of all, there is the infrastructure, if you like,
the physical projects, in places where other aspects of the Olympic
Games will be being held other than London, but, second, there
are the wider cultural projects which will link in with the histories
of the people who are here now across the UK, who may have come
here from a whole range of different places, linking those histories
and those stories with the experiences of the athletes and the
visitors who will be coming from across the world. I think there
is a tremendous amount that we can do there. As Liz was indicating
earlier, the range of projects that we support is enormous. We
support a lot of cultural history projects, a lot of projects
associated with language, and so on; and those sorts of things,
I think, will be able to knit very well into the whole cultural
programme for the Olympics, and welcoming visitors as well, providing
a recognition of the communities that are here that will be welcoming
other communities coming in.
Q297 Mr Doran: Can I just ask one
more question? The same point really to Sports UK. I can mention
Aberdeen in this context because I know that my own local authority
has started to look at the possibility of providing training facilities,
and when we spoke to Barbara Cassani at a previous inquiry just
a few weeks ago she made it clear that was going to be a clear
part of the bid. Can you say what you are planning to do to encourage
the regions to be involved in that process?
Mrs Nicholl: This is where we
would work very closely with the British Olympic Association and
their direct links with the other Olympic Associations around
the world. I think we have got to understand that not every country
is going to bring their squad to the UK to prepare. If you look
at what Team GB is doing, we are going to four locations prior
to Athens. We are going to Greece, we are going to Cyprus, we
are going to Barcelona, and going to Milan. So other countries,
from a performance perspective, will be looking very carefully
at, "Where is the best environment for my athletes to prepare?"
I think we can learn from what Team GB's needs are and have a
discussion across the sports councils about what are the opportunities
for matching the needs of other countries to the facilities and
locations and environment that we have pre-games; and we would
rely on our partnership with the BOA to be marketing that opportunity
to the other countries. So I think it must be part of a long-term
plan, but there are no "givens" here.
Q298 Mr Doran: No. I understand that.
Will you be involving the devolved administrations and local authorities
in that?
Mrs Nicholl: Absolutely, yes.
The devolved administrations will be involving the local authorities;
we will be involving the devolved administrations.
Q299 Rosemary McKenna: Can I comment
that it is most encouraging to see four women appearing before
the Select Committee. It is interesting that it is public bodies
that you represent and public appointments, because we find that
most people who come before us are not women, but men, and from
the private sector, so I find it very encouraging. I want to develop
that theme, particularly with UK Sport, because, as a former netballer—and
I am delighted to say you both were involved in netball—it
is a long time ago—there is a problem, I think, about young
women in sport. The image that young women have of themselves
at the moment is very worrying. Can you do anything, and do you
do anything, to encourage participation of young women in sport?
Ms Campbell: I think there are
some very exciting initiatives at the moment; but again, if I
may, the community development of sport is very much a home country-based
issue, and they would be tackling that wider participation of
women in sport. I think the role we could play is using our elite
athletes much more effectively as role models; and I do not think
we have even begun to do that in a way in which we hope to in
the future. We have some very exciting plans to use our elite
women athletes in a much more constructive way in the communities
in which they live to inspire and motivate, but that only works
if you are already athletic, and for many young women that is
not how they see themselves. I think your question is a very important
question. There are some very exciting initiatives now in schools
where we are looking at a very different menu of opportunities
beyond the rather traditional physical education that we experienced
which has turned off probably as many women, unfortunately, as
it excited and enthused. In fact it has turned off more. By increasing
the menu of opportunities, opportunities like self-defence, aerobics,
yoga, activities which appeal to young women, in a more effective
way, then we are seeing massive increases in participation. I
think our job at UK Sport is to try to use our elite athletes
to inspire young women, not just those who are going to be elite
athletes, but to inspire young women to see that being physically
active, being a good athlete, is synonymous with being feminine,
attractive, all those things that they tend to feel sit in different
camps. I mean, that is the problem, this dissonance between: is
athleticism also attractive? I think we can do some good work
in that, and we have some wonderful role models, as you know,
with people like Paula. Paula does some tremendous work in schools
and is an inspiration, just because she is such a humble, modest,
wonderful person, whether or not she is a great athlete, but she
has, and I have watched her, inspired the most inactive young
women to want to engage in some form of activity.
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