Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
16 DECEMBER 2003
Lord Currie of Marylebone, and Mr Stephen Carter,
examined.
Q40 Chairman: But it is fewer viewers
now at 10.30. It is outside peak period; it is a down-grading
of the concept of news on Channel 3; it is exactly what Sir George
Russell rejected; and it is exactly what Mr Dyke wanted all of
those years, so you can have certainty in all kinds of ways. Saddam
Hussein may not be too satisfied if he finds out that one aspect
of certainty is that he will be executed. I simply fail to understand
why, on the issue of certainty, you decided now on what has happened—namely
that although Channel 3 is supposed to be a public service channel
news has finally been down-graded on Channel 3?
Lord Currie of Marylebone: I think
it is important to appreciate we have to work within powers. Of
course, the ITC has made this decision before Ofcom has taken
its powers, but the licence requirement placed on Channel 3 is
for one news bulletin in peak, therefore they are conforming with
the licence conditions. You may well say you would prefer to see
the news go back to a different time: we have to work, however,
with the regulatory powers that are at the disposal of the regulator.[1]
Q41 Ms Shipley: The Secretary of State
has announced to the press and confirmed to me in writing that
she would ask Ofcom to look into the issue of advertising of food
and drink during children's television scheduling. Could I ask
you what timeframe you are working to?
Mr Carter: Literally yesterday
we responded to the Secretary of State. We are about to put the
letter on the website, and that letter lays out our response to
her series of questions. On your timescale point, from memory
our plan I think is to work to a six month schedule between now
and then—
Q42 Ms Shipley: But she will be gone
by then if there is a reshuffle—
Mr Carter: The position of Secretary
of State we are assuming will not be.
Q43 Ms Shipley: — Promoted, of
course!
Mr Carter: That lays out consultation
all the way through research, and then issuing of new codes if
that is what is needed.
Q44 Ms Shipley: Now that really disturbs
me because when I took this up a year ago she said "More
research" and was waiting for the Food Standards Agency research
to come out. All the existing research suggests that something
has to be done about food and drink advertising and when she wrote
that letter, which she copied to me, in it I could see she asked
you to do more research, so she is asking you to do yet more research
putting it back another six months, and I put it to you that that
is just a delaying tactic, frankly, of a difficult problem.
Mr Carter: To be accurate to the
Secretary of State she did not ask us to do more research; she
asked us to look at the question—
Q45 Ms Shipley: No. In the letter she
copied to me there was "more research"—I urge
you to carry out more research. There was the word there.
Mr Carter: The view we have taken
and I think it is a sensible one given it is ground zero for us
on 29 December is that there is a body of research out there from
a variety of different sources, of which the Strathclyde research
is the most recent, but our view was that it made sense to look
at the question in the round, because not all of the research
does: to consult with all the interested parties, of which there
are many; and to do that on as speedy a timescale as we can in
the interests of public consultation. It is difficult to do that
in under six months.
Q46 Ms Shipley: I accept that actually;
that is difficult for you to do. What I would like to put on record
is that it is a delaying tactic from the Secretary of State because
she already said wait for the FSA report that looked into 118
pieces of information, and the industry has consulted with her
and given her endless meetings. She has listed those and they
are now on record in the library. The public has responded to
endless polls—all the information is there for her to make
a decision on, and to ask you to do more research to me is a delaying
tactic.
Lord Currie of Marylebone: Could
I just say that it is important to note on the Strathclyde research
that Professor Hastings himself argued for a forward-looking research
agenda, and made the point that a lot of the evidence on which
he was drawing was old and American in source. The research base
here is not as strong as one would like.
Q47 Ms Shipley: 118 pieces of research
were reviewed. If you are going to ask for new research then the
timescale is going to be considerably more than six months. If
you are working within six months it is a delaying tactic because
all the information already exists. Moving on, ITC confirmed to
this Committee in a meeting with the Secretary of State that it
had no powers to deal with this issue. It has confirmed that in
writing to me, to the Secretary of State in a meeting, and in
front of this Committee. So, what sort of powers would you be
looking at from Ofcom's position?
Lord Currie of Marylebone: The
Secretary of State has statutory powers—
Q48 Ms Shipley: No. She said to this
Committee it was an issue for ITC and then an issue for Ofcom,
so it is Ofcom that is going to have to be looking at this. So
what elements are you looking at?
Mr Carter: The responsibility
for this in truth lies in about three different places. There
is a very clear line of authority back through the statute to
the Secretary of State on direction around advertising and minutage
and control. There is a very clear responsibility on us to issue
assessive codes around advertising guidance, and then clearly,
most importantly of all, there is the responsibility of the broadcasters
and the advertisers in the way in which they approach it. We are
enjoined by statute to try and be self-regulatory and co-regulatory
where we can, so our start point would be to see whether or not
we can find a co-regulatory solution rather than a mandated solution,
but in those mixture of places that is where the responsibility
lies.
Q49 Ms Shipley: So for you specifically
it will be the codes; that will be your main focus. Under the
existing codes there is no power for the advertising industry,
the television regulator or anybody at all to stop the advertising
of high fat, high sugar, high salt content food and drink during
children's schedule. There are no existing mechanisms to do this?
Mr Carter: There are no existing
mechanisms. I would describe our role in this as one of responsibility
and influence. Our responsibility lies around the codes, as you
rightly say. Our role in terms of influence lies around the broader
questions, and one of the reasons for us wanting to do, even if
it is only a wrap-up piece of research with a little bit of original
thinking, is to say what is this entire picture and then present
it, of which clearly there will be a narrower sub-set which is
where we can contribute directly if it is needed.
Q50 Ms Shipley: The advertising industry
says this is not a problem, that high fat, high sugar, high salt
content food and drink—and by "high" I mean World
Health Organisation figures for high, so we can define it—is
not its problem, it should be allowed to carry on advertising.
The television industry has mailed MP colleagues saying it is
not a problem, they should be allowed to carry on doing it. However,
there is a very large body of evidence which suggests it should
not, so we are going to come down to regulation and you will have
to make a decision no doubt whether you regulate or not. I would
suggest that if something is not a statutory requirement, if it
is not actually required to do it, the industry will not do it
because the industry does not recognise it is part of the problem.
Mr Carter: I cannot speak for
the advertising industry, they can speak very well for themselves.
There seems to us as a regulator quite a number of examples in
other places where there is no statutory responsibility or specificity
but there is quite a lot of voluntary action.
Q51 Ms Shipley: Not in this area. They
positively flatly refuse.
Mr Carter: I am just making the
general point it is not de facto the case you cannot get
to a sensible place without statutory authority. In fact more
often than not you can get to a much more sensible place. Clearly
one of the objectives is to get to a sensible place. All we are
discussing here is what is a sensible place and, as I say, we
are going to approach this, do some fresh research, look at what
there is, work with the industry and try to get to that sensible
place.
Q52 Ms Shipley: Work with the industry?
Mr Carter: The industry being
the broadcasters and advertisers. They will be a consultee in
the research process.
Q53 Ms Shipley: You are looking at the
people you have just said, but what about the whole of the other
side? What about the medical groups, the voluntary groups, the
huge number of other people.
Mr Carter: And, and, and, and.
Q54 Ms Shipley: The chief executive of
the ITC, when she came in front of this Committee and indeed at
a meeting with the Secretary of State, argued on behalf of the
television companies and how a loss of revenue would affect them,
and that is why things should not be done, and on behalf of the
advertisers. I thought that was a completely disgraceful position
for the watch dog to take. Could you please reassure us today
that you will take a considerably more independent position than
the ITC took?
Mr Carter: Again, I am not as
familiar as you are with the ITC's position.
Q55 Ms Shipley: It is on record to this
Committee.
Mr Carter: Definitely I will refer
to it. It seems to me entirely appropriate for the regulator to
look at all of the perspectives, and we have a group of commercially
funded public service broadcasters and their views are relevant.
The people who partially fund that are the advertisers, their
views are relevant. So are the consumer groups, so are the consumers,
so are the parents, so are the doctors, so are the medical experts.
There is not a defining single view that ranks above the others.
So it seems to me the role we have here is to do exactly that,
which is to look across all the issues and then make a balanced
analysis and judgment.
Q56 Ms Shipley: Finally, could I ask
you, is children's television public service broadcasting?
Mr Carter: Good question. As the
current definition would have it, yes, part of it yes.
Q57 Ms Shipley: Which part?
Mr Carter: That is probably a
subject for a longer discussion at another time. There is a significant
proportion of original production, UK production and UK children's
programming, which would pass the definition of commercial public
service broadcasting.
Q58 Ms Shipley: Which part would not?
Mr Carter: Hopefully, as David
said earlier, we will get to clarity around that at the end of
the PSB review.
Lord Currie of Marylebone:
In the whole general area of public service broadcasting, the
definitions have been rather unclear. We intend that review to
give clarity, exactly to be able to answer questions of that kind.
Ms Shipley: Thank you.
Chairman: You will have noted, gentlemen,
when Debra Shipley says "finally" she means finally.
A lesson to us all.
Q59 Chris Bryant: That was a pointed
remark from the Chairman because I used the word "finally"
in a penultimate question last week rather than an ultimate question.
You said earlier, Lord Currie, that obviously the most important
thing is to try and achieve competitive and vibrant markets. I
wonder in the areas you are dealing with how many problems you
think you will have to face in terms of monopolistic practices
which prevent competitive and vibrant markets?
Lord Currie of Marylebone: If
one looks at the markets with which we deal, you have in broadcasting
a considerable weight and influence from the BBC, in the telecoms
area clearly BT occupies a very strong position. We will need
to be vigilant in ensuring those strong positions are not abused
and do allow effective competition to emerge.
1 Footnote by Witness: The regulatory regime
set out in the Communications Act for Channel 3 includes appropriate
conditions for high quality national and international news programmes
to be broadcast at intervals throughout the schedule and split,
as Ofcom thinks appropriate, between peak and other viewing times. Back
| 
