Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-47)
11 MAY 2004
MR ANTHONY
BOWNE, MR
DEREK PURNELL,
MR WAYNE
MCGREGOR
AND MS
SIOBHAN DAVIES
Q40 Chris Bryant: That is not quite the
question. I just wonder whether there is such conservatism inbuilt
into the conservatoire system that you end up—
Mr Bowne: It is interesting you
pick up on that piece. The choreographer for that, Matthew Bourne,
came out of Laban, he was one of our students. Although we used
the term conservatoire—and it is a very difficult term particularly
in contemporary dance because it implies tradition and conservation
of the old—you are absolutely right, we are talking about
new art forms and new ways of working, but I think people like
Matthew coming out of the new type of conservatoire are showing
a very different route.
Q41 Chris Bryant: I wrote a very bad
biography of Glenda Jackson and when I went to interview many
of the people that she had worked with they were people whose
names you knew quite well but they were now living in pretty abject
poverty. I just wonder whether that is true for a lot of dancers
when their career is finished and what support there is for people
in the industry.
Ms Davies: I think a lot of dancers
who are working are in abject poverty and I think that is something
I would really like us all to address. The earning capacity of
somebody in my company is sometimes as low as £12,000 and
I think nearly every single one of my company have been mentioned
in the national press as one of the most extraordinary dancers
they have seen. I know there are more ways in which it is important
for me to make quite sure that they earn more money, but that
is something that our whole art form needs to address. Also, as
we progress there are ways in which this art form can mature and
one way it can mature is by using more mature dancers, therefore
extending their working lives. I am going to ask somebody else
to talk about pensions. It is the lives of our present dancers
that also need addressing as well as the older ones.
Mr Purnell: It is about a lack
of investment in people. Generally speaking the dancers' pension
scheme only operates within the regularly funded sector, so there
are an awful lot of independent dancers working with different
companies who do not have access to that kind of scheme. Obviously
there are potential changes in the pension arrangements which
may have an impact on some dancers, but currently they can take
a pension at 35. We do not actively encourage anyone to take a
pension at 35, but that can often coincide with a point in their
career when a transition is required and some access to that capital
is required. There is also a dancers' career development organisation,
which also helps people make that transition to a second career,
which is sadly lacking in funds. It is investment in the people,
whether they retrain to work in dance or go on to something else,
that is the central issue.
Ms Davies: All the dancers are
useful. They do have real knowledge and not just about dancing.
You suddenly think what do they do, do they stop dancing, are
they useful? Yes, they are tremendously useful. They have a fantastic
knowledge and set of organisational skills as well. I think we
forget how much our intelligence can be used as well as our physical
strength.
Mr Purnell: I think the key is
the discipline required to perform is immense and the skills that
you acquire to do that are hugely transferable.
Q42 Derek Wyatt: With the development
of Regional Development Agencies and then the Regional Arts Boards,
I just wonder what the connection is between the two and whether
there has been commissioned a paper that says there will be a
Centre of Excellence for dance in each of the English regions?
Mr Purnell: I do not think there
is a paper that says that. I think the connections locally within
those regions are still struggling to be found. There are issues
about that. The way that the cultural industry's jargon is used
in different areas varies enormously and we have had various attempts
certainly within Birmingham to try and bridge that gap and not
with huge success.
Q43 Derek Wyatt: Is that relationship
because dance is so new or is it because in a sense the RDAs do
not take the creative arts that seriously?
Mr Purnell: I think the latter.
Q44 Derek Wyatt: Can you tell me what
you would advise us to say in our report about this development?
I have an interest in a particular secondary school in my constituency
that has a dance studio but it is not strong enough academically
yet to win it in the eyes of the Department for Education. They
are struggling to understand how on earth they can get stakeholders
to help them develop what they want to do, but they just do not
know where to go next. If you were the new boys and girls in town,
how would we help you to get the depth that you want of us?
Mr McGregor: What has struck me
about working with young people is obviously what is happening
when you are in the process of making. It is not just a physical
activity, there are lots of other things going on. Central to
that is what our notion of education is, what is intelligence.
The way in which we prize intelligence a lot in schools is either
verbal or linguistic or mathematical or scientific, it is not
all of those intelligences which are kinaesthetic. I certainly
want my heart surgeon to have a really good sense of his body
when he is operating on me after I have had a heart attack as
much as I want him to know the theory about surgery. I want him
to have a pro receptive sense of himself. It is how you value
something like rhythmic literacy, how do you value visual literacy
in the same way, if we can find a way of discussing that point.
The criteria by which your school is not achieving might not necessarily
be the criterion that says that school is not potentially intelligent.
Q45 Derek Wyatt: The profoundness of
that is that western education has only ever been interested in
one half of the brain and that is the fundamental problem of western
education, it is not interested in the things that you have been
talking about and I do not think you or I can overturn that today.
Mr Purnell: I think it is a real
problem for a school in that situation to know how they engage
with that and get on the ladder. It depends a lot on the quality
of the teachers within that particular school and again it is
back to the original thing of investing in the teachers. I know
a lot of the organisations that have put in submissions have made
the point that in terms of where dance figures in that initial
training for teachers is a key factor. Then there is the inset
training which follows on from that and there is continuing professional
development after that. The quality of the teaching within the
school currently is obviously going to be a hugely important factor
and then making connections with other performing companies who
may be able to help bring some expertise in and slowly winning
the local politicians and so on around to engaging with that school
as a place where the arts happens and at that point you can work
the system to some degree.
Q46 Derek Wyatt: If we cannot name the
Centres of Excellence per region at the moment—maybe we
can but it seems we cannot—then we are going to struggle
a bit until those things are in lights. We ask a huge amount of
our teachers, not only have they got to do maths, English, French,
geography, we should not be suddenly asking them to do civics
and then sex education. There is only so much time in the day.
Do you think it would be better if we did the left-hand of the
brain from nine to 12 and then we did the right-hand of the brain
from one to four like they do in France?
Mr McGregor: I think that is a
good idea.
Q47 Derek Wyatt: I am really asking for
a revolution, but there we are.
Ms Davies: It is a good beginning.
We have gradually got a generation of teachers out there now who
could go into more schools, it is that ripple effect again if
the schools are able to be welcoming and that takes increased
finance. We are beginning to build up a group of people who could
move in there and start dealing with this.
Mr Purnell: We have been involved
with the Creative Partnership Scheme in Birmingham and we are
watching that very carefully because that has brought a huge amount
of additional funding into the system. If that works and these
pilots can prove that that is a great model to develop for the
future then that investment could be grown.
Derek Wyatt: Come and make my school
a Centre of Excellence for the South East.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
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