Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120
- 139)
WEDNESDAY 20 OCTOBER 2004
AIR CHIEF
MARSHAL SIR
JOCK STIRRUP
KCB AFC ADC
Q120 Mr Cran: I have no doubt. I
have found the dialogue between yourself and Mr Havant to be confusing
and I therefore must wait until I see the written word before
I conclude what I conclude from it. However there was the premise
for at least some of the time-scales we are looking at ahead there
will be reduced aircraft numbers. I think that is correct?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
That is correct.
Q121 Mr Cran: What effect will that
have on the training vis-a"-vis close air support?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
None.
Q122 Mr Cran: It will have none whatsoever?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
None.
Q123 Mr Cran: Thank you. Will the
training be extended to include operations with an urban environment
as in for instance the operations that clearly the US Airforce
are conducting in Iraq at the minute? Can we train for that and
if we can how do we train for that?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
This would be one of the important questions for the SFOR organisation
to address when it looks at the whole issue of doctrine and procedures.
Q124 Mr Cran: Okay and when are we
liable to get anything from that? What is the timescale for that?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
As I say, in part this does rely upon extra resources being made
available to fund posts, but assuming we are able to do that,
and we do put a great deal of priority on it, then certainly I
would anticipate during the course of next year.
Q125 Mr Cran: Of course, as I understand
it—perhaps you will contradict me—there are no UK
based facilities for close air support. You mentioned one operation
but is there a range of places we can train, or just the one you
mentioned? What do you feel about that?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
There are UK based facilities. For many years we have run forward
air controller courses. We dedicate aircraft to it from the Royal
Air Force. We have a range of facilities to enable the forward
air controllers to practise their skills. The problem is that
it is not sufficiently large to train enough and there are not
enough opportunities for continuation training of those who are
already qualified, so it is a matter of expanding it considerably,
but there are potential opportunities on a wide range of exercises,
both in the UK and more widely.
Q126 Mr Cran: You did mention the
cost factor, which I chose to ignore at the time you mentioned
it but I am now ready to ask a question about that. You agreed
that there are additional costs associated with all of this and
the question is how are they going to be funded?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
That is something that we are addressing during the current short-term
planning round.
Q127 Mr Cran: Again, when are we
liable to have answers?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
The outcome of the current planning round will be known early
next year, around a February timescale.
Q128 Mr Roy: Can I take you back
to cost and speak specifically in relation to closures. Obviously
you are aware of the plans that have been put forward for RAF
Kinloss and Lossiemouth and the huge disquiet there is in Scotland
regarding the possible closure of these RAF bases. I would like
to refer to the Ministry of Defence press release of 12 October
on the future role of, for example, RAF Kinloss. The MoD said
that the basing of the new RAF Nimrod MRA4 fleet, which comes
into service in 2009, replacing the Nimrod MR2 would be based
either in one or two locations, either at RAF Waddington or at
RAF Kinloss in Moray. I said earlier about the huge disquiet and
there is a huge worry in the Moray area, for example, that of
both of those bases only one is really being considered for closure.
Obviously the morale at these RAF bases is not helped when they
read these stories in the newspapers. The local newspapers at
the moment are saying that they have a costing plan that shows
the cost of closing Kinloss as opposed to RAF Waddington and there
is no similar costing plan for RAF Waddington on its own. Obviously
that makes it plain to people that this is a bit of a charade
and all along what the RAF or the MoD want to do is close both
Moray bases. The reason I feel I have to bring up closures is
the disproportionate impact that closures would have on the Moray
area and on the morale of the men and women serving on that base.
I was looking through the Moray Economic Survey into the
possible closure of these bases and the two bases have a total
of 4,274 service personnel and 740 civilian employees; total income
(wages and spending on supplies) for the two bases was £93.2
million of which £27.6 million accrued to local residents;
the majority of Moray schools have RAF children in them and one
in particular has 80 per cent of the children who are there from
the base; and the RAF has nearly 3,000 homes that have been rented
out to RAF personnel, hence the very understandable worry of the
disproportionate impact that this whole subject has caused. The
biggest worry for many people is the perceived lack of consultation
that is extremely worrying, that is burrowing its way into the
fibre of thousands and thousands of people in the Moray area who
need those bases open. There is a genuine feeling that we are
just paying lip service here and Kinloss would close and the Lincolnshire
base would stay open. What do you say to the people who write
to me, whether it be local councillors, school teachers, nurses
or RAF personnel? Is this the way to go about it? What does it
do to the morale of your serving personnel?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
The first thing I would say is that I entirely understand the
concerns of the people living in that area. I have served on the
Moray Firth, it is a marvellous area and they are very supportive
people. What I would say is that there are no firm plans for anything.
In this country we have 73 military airfields. Of course, a great
many of those are very small grass strips, glider sites and so
on. Nevertheless, it is quite clear that we have more airfield
infrastructure in this country than we need from a military perspective.
That is inefficient. It requires people to run the additional
bases; it requires money to run them. The money that we spend
on keeping up bases that we do not really need is money that we
cannot spend investing in the infrastructure of the bases that
we do need, and this Committee is well aware of the importance
all of the Chiefs of Staff attach to improving the state of our
infrastructure across defence. It would be irresponsible of us
not to address that issue. We have had a Defence Airfield Review
to look at that issue. The Defence Airfield Review has come up
with a number of wide-ranging propositions, and that is what they
are. All of them will have to be tested through a full business
case, which would need to take account of all of the issues which
you have raised. None of them so far have been, so we are nowhere
near taking the kinds of decisions which your correspondents feel
may have been taken.
Q129 Mr Roy: Is that decision based
outwith and inside the RAF bases themselves? When you look at
the full costing, for example, do you look at the social impact
and the cost of that?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
Yes. All investment appraisals and business cases take account
of all the factors. What the outcome of those will be I do not
know, but at the moment there is no agreed business case one way
or the other and until there is we do not have any plan. When
that business case is being constructed there will be the appropriate
degree of consultation and all the appropriate factors will be
taken into account.
Q130 Mr Roy: What is the timescale
of that?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
For Kinloss and Lossiemouth, I would hesitate to give a precise
timescale. I think that it will be most likely in the second tranche
of propositions that we address because there are some that are
much more immediate.
Q131 Mr Roy: What does that mean?
Are you talking about March, June, September next year or when?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
I hesitate to give you a specific date because you will hold me
to it.
Q132 Mr Roy: Give me a year.
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
Certainly it will be a little while yet.
Q133 Mr Roy: Next year or the year
after?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
Certainly not before next year.
Q134 Mr Roy: Not before next year.
This is like going to the dentist!
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
I cannot give you a precise date because we have not yet established
how long it is going to take us to work through the first tranche
of propositions, but it is important for everybody to understand
that until the work is done no decisions are made. Your question
to me was based on the misunderstanding of your correspondents
that this decision had been made, that it had been prejudged and
there had been no consultation, but that is not the case.
Q135 Mr Roy: Just clarify this for
me. Clarify that there is not a plan, a cost study programme to
close RAF Kinloss and yet there is a similar cost study programme
to close Moray. The people at RAF Kinloss are saying to me: "They
have got this programme, it is us against them, it is two bases
and yet they have only done a cost study of one base, what does
that tell you?"
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
The propositions that were made in the Defence Airfield Review
were, of course, underpinned by some judgments on costs otherwise
there would have been no basis for making the propositions in
the first place, but those propositions are very broad brush and
have to be tested through a proper business case and investment
appraisal which would take account of costs at both ends.
Q136 Mr Roy: Are you telling me then
that absolutely the same programme has been carried out for both
bases, yes or no?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
It has not been carried out for either. We have not done the business
case.
Q137 Mr Roy: You have not done the
business case and you have not done the costing?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
No, not a detailed costing.
Q138 Mr Roy: Are you telling me that
the newspapers have got hold of something that they say is a costing
of what would happen to RAF Kinloss but that is not true?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
What we have is a broad brush indicative figure of what we might
be able to save by doing one thing rather than another but it
is not a detailed costing. The Ministry of Defence's Senior Economic
Adviser would not allow us, even if we wished to, to proceed on
the basis of an incomplete investment appraisal.
Q139 Mr Roy: You are treating both
bases exactly the same?
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup:
Yes.
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