Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80
- 99)
MONDAY 19 MAY 2003
MR JOHN
BEATTIE, MS
SARAH STEPHENS,
MR ALAN
MEYRICK AND
MR KEITH
HILL
Q80 Chairman: What I am trying to
tease out of you in a sense is what we started off with, the firmness
of your role. The parallel with the GTC was always drawn with
the General Medical Council, the GMC. What I am trying to get
out of the discussion is whether you are a General Medical Council
model or whether you are a BMA model. At one moment you sound
more like the BMA than like the GMC. It came out strongly when
Keith was answering a question. He started by saying it was all
anecdotal but he was going to tell us about it. Then Sarah referred
to the MORI poll, which is interesting but not exactly frontline
academic research. You have a piece of research which we have
in common with you, although we have not been allowed to see it,
in the sense that we share a specialist adviser who wrote part
of that report and we will, I hope, be able to see it at a certain
stage. You are telling us you are the GTC, you have been going
for two and a half years. We are a Select Committee just starting
an inquiry into why or whether we have problems with teacher recruitment
and retention and I am not getting a clear focus from the four
of you, or any firm idea about whether there is a problem and
if so where its roots are. I am sorry, I am not being rude but
I am giving you a second chance.
Mr Beattie: The distinction between
the General Medical Council and the British Medical Association
is one which is unknown to me so I cannot respond to that. Certainly
in terms of the retention issue—and it is an issue rather
than a problem—we are at the stage, on the basis of the
MORI survey which you described. My colleagues' research and discussion
and policy work in other areas, identifying what at the moment
are the strands and trends and information there, are about retention
or lack of retention in the teaching profession. I am quite clear
that our intention in all this is to identify the sort of good
practice which will enable the profession to enable good practitioners
who wanted to remain in the profession to do so constructively
and fruitfully over a number of years. Does that help?
Q81 Chairman: It does. What was the
most worrying thing for you out of the MORI poll when you read
it through?
Mr Beattie: For myself—and
it was a very small sample—it was the feeling amongst teachers
from ethnic minorities that the respect they received was less
than their white counterparts and in some cases they felt that
perhaps even their professions did not accord them the same sort
of respect as they did to their white colleagues.
Chairman: I partly share that, but what
seemed to mark the profession off was that a lot of the responses
in a sense were what we might have considered them to be. When
we get to the lower respect teachers get from the public, from
parents, from politicians, personally I thought that was absolutely
mind bogglingly more extreme than I would have guessed.
Q82 Ms Munn: I want to raise an issue
which is related to that, about the bunker mentality "I am
okay with my kids in my school and my parents know me and I get
a reasonable level of respect, but generally I do not". Then
when you come onto the issue of the image of the teaching profession,
it seemed to be that 56% thought the Government must become a
better advocate of teachers and the career of teaching, but only
10% of teachers thought they themselves could do more to promote
their achievements. There almost seems to be this feeling not
just of nobody liking them, but that it is not their job to do
something about it, which I think is enormously worrying.
Mr Beattie: Yes, it is a worrying
factor. Even if this is a reasonably small sample, the fact that
that number of people feel that way is something we ought to be
concerned about. We are certainly concerned about it. What we
can do about it is another matter. One of the things we set out
to do is make the profession feel better about itself and slowly
we are beginning to do that. It is a significant message to us
as a nation that this number of teachers feel that way about how
they are perceived.
Q83 Ms Munn: What is the message
you are going to be giving to teachers about this being a two-way
thing, that it is not just up to everybody else to do something
about saying how wonderful teachers are, which a lot of us do
quite a bit of the time in our constituency life? Should they
not be doing something about it themselves? In a sense we as MPs
suffer from the same thing. A lot of people will say they have
no time for MPs, but if you ask about their own MP, they say they
are doing a good job, or they are taking up an issue on their
behalf. It is in our interests because we have to get elected,
but we take on the importance of portraying ourselves and doing
what we can to make sure that we come across well to the public.
Should something not be done about the fact that teachers do not
see that they themselves have to get out there?
Ms Stephens: And advocate on behalf
of teachers. We return to the issue, do we not, which we touched
upon earlier? We do seem to have a position at the moment where
few teachers feel that they wish to have that advocacy role on
behalf of teachers, because their professional experience has
been such that they do not wish to recommend it. Of course that
is not all, but it is a significant factor within the profession.
Part of dislodging that has to be our role in supporting that
professional experience, getting it right, getting it right so
that teachers, when they come into the profession, have a good
range of challenges and a framework of professional support, which
is commensurate with other graduate employment opportunities.
Part of our role is also about revealing those teachers who do
feel able to say that thus far their professional experience is
this. And working with the media on that, we have begun that process
of identifying those teachers.
Q84 Ms Munn: The issue for me though
is that it is not just about somebody going out and saying come
on in this is a great job to do. It is also about teachers themselves
talking about what they are achieving. You might not want to be
somebody who suggests to somebody else that they do this job,
but that does not mean you should not have pride in what you do.
We have some of the best results we have had in literacy and numeracy.
That is down to teachers; it is down to additional resources,
but it is down to teachers. I would want to see them prepared
to go out and argue that. Changing people's views and the public's
views about how teachers think cannot be done by Charles Clarke
standing up and saying teachers do a good job. That is the important
thing.
Ms Stephens: I am sure that is
right and part of our role is on that level, to enable the profession
to articulate what it is that it does do. Even now we have a popular
conception that teachers stand and deliver, that it is quite a
simple transmission model which goes on in the classroom. Actually
what teachers do is pretty complex stuff. For teachers to be able
to make that clear and the results of their achievement is vitally
important and we are certainly attempting to work with teachers
to enable them at local, regional, national level to reveal that,
for example through the media, giving them opportunities to do
that.
Q85 Chairman: What are the subject
areas which most concern you at the moment in terms of shortage
of teachers?
Mr Hill: In relation to the way
the curriculum will be changing, the demand for teachers will
be changing according to the way individual schools interpret
curriculum 14-19 with time in relation to some of those vocational
subjects. I would look to the core subjects in particular, but
on the basis of the TTA targets and applications, and that is
obviously not the be-all and end-all of how many teachers you
are getting, they point to the situation in science subjects and
maths as a concern, for the simple reason that those subjects
are going to continue to be important in every school, whatever
way individual schools interpret the increased responsibilities
there within curriculum 14-19.
Q86 Paul Holmes: I was tempted to
pick up several things, but I will not, or we will be sidetracked
into party-political slanging. So may I ask you a different question,
but carrying on from something you said earlier? In terms of the
role of the General Teaching Council, and you were talking about
the Teacher Training Agency, what is the point of having two different
bodies like that? Why does the Teacher Training Agency not just
get taken over by the GTC, for example? Why have two separate
bodies?
Mr Beattie: The immediate objection
to that would be that at the moment we are not in a position to
do so. We have quite a lot on our plate as it is. What might happen
in the future is another matter. At the moment, we work quite
closely with the TTA on a number of issues. We are certainly not
big enough to do all that would need to be done in that respect
at the moment. They have practice and expertise in the field which
at the moment we are happy to share with them.
Ms Stephens: The TTA administers
large-scale processes. The General Teaching Council is not an
administrative body. It is a body which enables self-regulation
and advice to Government on behalf of the education community,
including teachers. Anything of a different nature would require
a change in remit. It is not one we seek. We see these two roles
as key roles in influencing the contribution teachers make to
pupil learning in the public interest and we do not see ourselves
as an administrative body of the recruitment and supply of the
profession. Indeed neither does the GTC. There are no easy comparators
to reach there.
Q87 Paul Holmes: If the General Teaching
Council is to have a real role for teachers—and I was a
school teacher when the GTC was set up and refused to join it
at the time—if teachers are really going to think yes, this
organisation is standing up for us and representing us and so
forth, should you not get more teeth in some way? It is hard to
imagine the BMA saying they want to have a say in how doctors
are trained. Why should you not, if you are an organisation which
is really going to stand up for teachers or regulate teachers,
have more resources? You were saying earlier that you do not have
the resources to commission research and comparisons. Should you
not have more resources and more involvement in what is going
on, if you are going to do a real job on behalf of teachers whom
you are there to represent and regulate.
Ms Stephens: In terms of the definition
of qualified teacher status standards, they are the responsibility
of the Secretary of State. The primary point of advice thus far
is the TTA. We made a significant contribution to the last revisions
to the QTS standards, which after all define the training upon
which professional entry is based. The General Teaching Council's
code of values is now part of the qualified teacher status standards.
That has been an important move for the profession in that they
are values which have been signed up to through consultation with
the profession. The Council believes that there is an issue in
how the enactment of professional standards occurs. Are professional
standards best carried into the classroom through the profession
having a significant contribution to their definition? That is
a role we can helpfully fulfil: ensuring that is the case. On
the issue of professional development, we are making a major contribution.
We have just set out a professional learning framework which maps
the kinds of professional development which teachers and research
show are effective in supporting pupil learning.
Mr Beattie: We do have a very
real role and that role is the regulatory role. This is the first
time this profession has been regulated in this way. It is a major
undertaking and our core activity at the moment is to get that
registration perfect and to carry on with the regulatory, disciplinary
work and build up that clear code of standards and conduct that
we want for the profession.
Chairman: Thank you for that. I want
to look at reasons for leaving the profession now in more depth.
Q88 Mr Chaytor: Of those who leave
the profession at whatever stage of their career, is there a significant
difference between primary and secondary teachers?
Mr Hill: In terms of numbers or
the reasons?
Q89 Mr Chaytor: Yes, is there statistically
a significant difference indicating that either secondary are
more disaffected or primary are more disaffected or is it across
the board?
Mr Hill: No. There are some differences
in the reasons those who leave give for leaving in the same way
that in our survey there were differences in the reasons teachers
gave for being demotivated and having thought about leaving. The
biggest ones emerging in secondary are clearly the increased emphasis
on behaviour management, behaviour issues with students being
a factor.
Q90 Mr Chaytor: Is there a difference
between those who were recruited at the beginning of their career
and those who were recruited as mature students, that is to say
are those who came in without having experienced anything else
more likely to want to leave early?
Mr Hill: It would be interesting
to see what comes through in this mature entrants study in relation
to the question about people who have come in with experience
of other things. I could not comment on what that shows at this
particular time. What is very clear, not just through our survey
evidence or the University of Liverpool evidence, that you will
have access to through the Department, is that the feedback on
the induction year, going through the annual mid-year survey done
by the TTA on the evaluation of teacher training has identified
behaviour management and ICT as key areas for development. The
suspicion has to be, although I do not have it broken down into
primary and secondary, that behaviour management will matter even
more to secondary for the simple reason that it seems to matter
more to secondary teachers than primary teachers in general.
Q91 Mr Chaytor: One of the issues
you raise in your submission to the Committee is the question
of flexible working patterns for those reaching the end of their
career. What are the real specific obstructions to getting a more
flexible system as people approach retirement? Is it simply the
pension being based on the last three years' salary or however
it works? How could the system be made more flexible and what
representations have you made to the Government to suggest it
should be made more flexible?
Mr Hill: The detail of what goes
on in pensions is much more in the area of pay and conditions,
so it would be for the teachers' unions to make specific recommendations.
Q92 Mr Chaytor: You made the point
in your submission, so presumably the GTC has a view as to how
it should change. What is the essence of the problem?
Mr Hill: The essence of the problem
at the moment is that teachers who might seek to work less and
stage an exit to their careers are largely bound by their own
personal financial circumstances which would include the implications
for their pension if they reduced the numbers of days a week worked.
Q93 Mr Chaytor: Is that not always
going to be the case? You seem to be arguing that the traditional
model of working until you are 60 and suddenly retiring needs
to be changed, needs to be made more flexible, but the problem
of making it more flexible is always going to be a financial one,
is it not? What I am trying to get at is whether there is something
within the teachers' pension scheme which prevents it being more
flexible for those who have the financial stability or the financial
security to work less.
Mr Hill: Clearly there is. Our
reference to flexible employment, both in the case of teachers
reaching the end of their careers and in more general terms, has
more to do with the middle of their careers with reduced hours
worked, part-time work, job sharing and so on. With teachers at
the end of their careers it also has to do with what they do with
their time and whether there are ways in which those teachers
would be able to continue to work full time for longer.
Q94 Chairman: David Chaytor is asking
you a specific question. Those of us who have talked to senior
police officers about how to keep good experienced police officers
who would like to stay on, have asked them what inducements there
should be in pension and other arrangements, in order to attract
senior officers, officers of any rank, particularly senior and
middle ranking officers, to stay on for five or ten years. They
have a specific number of very detailed suggestions as to how
you could change pension arrangements and so on in order to do
that. Have the General Teaching Council got specific proposals
to make it more attractive for your people to stay on?
Ms Stephens: No, we do not. We
believe that is the proper work of the teachers' unions in negotiating
different terms and conditions which apply to the profession and
that is outside our remit.
Q95 Mr Chaytor: Your brief is to
advise Government on all aspects of the profession, so how can
that be outside your remit? This is a key issue to maximise the
potential of long-serving career teachers.
Ms Stephens: Absolutely. We would
advise them to work with the teachers' unions on such a matter;
that would be our advice.
Q96 Mr Chaytor: It is not very helpful
advice.
Mr Beattie: I must come to my
colleague's support here. We have to be very, very careful the
minute we enter this arena of pay and conditions; there are great
sensitivities around that. To answer one of the questions which
was asked earlier, there is already a stepping down arrangement
in the teachers' pension scheme. If you no longer want to carry
particular responsibility, then you can negotiate that.
Q97 Mr Chaytor: You cannot negotiate
stepping down to 50% or 75%.
Mr Beattie: I do not know the
details of it. I have known colleagues who were interested and
I have told them that there is such an arrangement and they should
phone the union and they will be told about it. That is the extent
of my knowledge. That is something we really cannot get involved
in. On the other hand, I can foresee ways in which you could take
early retirement. I have a number of colleagues at the moment
taking early retirement—two to be precise—who are
going to find life quite difficult as a result, but they are determined
to go. I could foresee a situation in schools where we began to
recognise this as a professional issue and not an individual issue,
just solitary individuals who are finding life hard and want to
get out, where we say there is a great reservoir of experience
in those people, they carry the history of the profession to some
extent and it is going to be lost when they go. So let us look
at some of the things we can do. What is it that makes their lives
so difficult at the moment? It is probably teaching full time
in the way they always have done. On the other hand—we talked
earlier about entrants coming into the profession—let us
move them into mentoring positions, let us give them the opportunity
to be responsible for performance management, so they can use
their expertise as teachers to watch young teachers teaching and
suggest how they might do things differently in the light of their
greater experience. Let us see whether we can send them out to
do some work with our primary colleagues. The ones I am talking
about at the moment do have areas of expertise which would be
quite useful in primary schools. If I look at the situation with
which I am familiar, which is a very large secondary school, the
only one in town with a whole series of satellite primary schools
feeding into it, because we have the sort of committee where all
the heads of primary schools come together with our own head and
consult on issues for the whole town, we could start in that sort
of situation to develop a scheme whereby some of the teachers
like that might move out to do some things in primary schools
and they could swop. It would be quite useful to have the primary
maths teacher who is currently teaching key stage 2 maths to come
and work in key stage 3, for instance. That sort of thing. It
would have to be local solutions and that is one of the things.
Q98 Mr Chaytor: Have you advised
the Government about these options or are you going to?
Mr Beattie: We have not done yet.
We need to work those through in our own committees first before
we can go to the Government with them.
Q99 Mr Chaytor: Can I shift the topic
a little? In terms of the reasons for people leaving, the workload,
the initiative overload and so on, do you think the Government
has responded to the messages from that survey in recent times?
How do you think the proposals on reforming the workforce will
help or hinder that?
Mr Beattie: Speaking in purely
personal terms, the Government clearly has responded in terms
of the work on the remodelling of the school workforce. How the
individual proposals will work out in practice we will have to
wait and see. I hope that they will be really successful, but
I am going to call my colleagues from the research and policy
departments to carry on this discussion.
Ms Stephens: Certainly we made
the case to the Government, one that had long been evident, that,
particularly in primary schools, teachers had not had any guaranteed
time for preparation and planning for assessment. It seemed to
us that this was a key factor, not only in retention but also
in quality of teaching in the classroom. The national agreement,
as you will be aware, is designed to deliver changes on that basis.
The extent to which those are realised is really in the air at
the moment, particularly in the current funding environment, but
one does not need to go much further on that.
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