Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-127)
MR DAVID
NORMINGTON, DR
RUTH THOMPSON
AND MR
STEPHEN CROWNE
25 JUNE 2003
Q120 Chairman: You have already put
a cap on any further expansion from higher education to 2006?
What are you going to do with all those kids that are going to
come through qualified to get regular honours degrees, are you
going to stop them coming in?
Mr Normington: Most of the increases
you have described are after 2006, but there is some increase
before then, but the answer to you is that we are planning that
the main increases should come from an expansion in foundation
degrees.
Q121 Chairman: Mr Normington, what
is concerning me is when you look at your Annual Report you look
at a very healthy growth in the percentage of education spending
as a percentage of GDP, you say that it has gone from 4.5% to
5.1%. That is a healthy trend and even healthier in a booming
economy. When you break the figures down first of all we hope,
and I do not know what your view is on this, that the United Kingdom
will rise up the international league where we see the United
Kingdom is 4.7, Finland 6.2, France 6.0, the same as Germany,
Canada and America 5.7 and 5.2%. These are figures from 1999,
do you anticipate that we are going to go up the league in percentage
GDP on education?
Mr Normington: We are certainly
going to increase by 2005-06, on present plans it will be 5.5%
of GDP.
Q122 Chairman: Can we do better than
our competitors?
Mr Normington: It depends on what
our competitors do. We are moving up the league very significantly
and 5.5 by 2005-06 at present will get us to about the average.
Q123 Chairman: Is that right? Let
me take you to another thing, another table in your Annual Report
shows education expenditure, 1997-98 to 2002-03. I am very impressed
by the figures, 1997-98 to 2002-03, schools currently in England
plus 34%. This is percentage of millions in real terms, 34%; under
fives plus 60%; primary, plus 25; secondary plus 29; others plus
69, schools capital plus 80%; further education and adults plus
38%. You and the Government deserve a pat on the back, do you
not?
Mr Normington: Yes, but of course
it depends what is being achieved with that money as well. You
also have to judge us by our outcomes.
Q124 Chairman: Outcomes are important.
Mr Normington: Yes.
Q125 Chairman: We talked about some
of those today. Then you slip your finger down to higher education
and there is hardly any growth at all. Student support minus 12%.
Those are very interesting figures when we have a White Paper
that extols the virtues of economy. We have recently completed
a report on higher education, these are astonishing figures if
you compare them with the largesse further down.
Mr Normington: Higher education
has had the lowest increases of all of the sectors, it actually
has had almost no increase in unit costs until this year. This
will be the first Spending Review period since the beginning of
1990 when spending on higher education has increased. However
the White Paper does not just talk about the importance of higher
education: it talks about others making a contribution to higher
education. The reason for the fall in the amounts being spent
on student finance is because of the funding, the new student
loan system, the previous changes to student loans coming in,
so students contributed more. With the Government's proposals
the aim is to get more money into universities and some of that
money will come from students and families' contributions.
Q126 Chairman: We will come back
to that on the higher education White Paper. The one thing we
must ask you about before you go is that you have had a run of,
I would not say bad luck, but certainly areas where we have been
very concerned as a select committee. We have tried to be the
voice of not only Parliament but also the taxpayer. Do you not
feel slightly guilty that here are the taxpayers, they see serious
problems, on the one hand money is being spent on serious problems
and on three separate occasions this Committee has highlighted
it. Is there any stage at which somebody in your Department might
be asked to resign? Do you think a minister should resign with
a catalogue of these events or do you think that is an old-fashioned
principle?
Mr Normington: I think people
should take responsibility for their mistakes. We have had resignations,
ministers have resigned, so it does happen. I think civil servants
should take that responsibility. I have to argue with you that
with each of those three cases they are all different. As you
commented on the A-levels, the frenzy we had did not match what
happened and what the impact was on students. I want to be judged
on whether we have done our best to get it right, and sometimes
we will not and in the end somebody else will have to decide whether
I should stay in the job or not. I do get my performance reviewed
and, of course, we talk about those three cases that you have
described and my part in putting them right.
Q127 Chairman: We take that point
and we will consider that answer. Can I just remind you of one
thing, the Individual Learning Accounts. We were very impressed
by the response that the Department gave to our inquiry Report.
We have not been impressed by two of your subsequent answers,
one on the British Library, we were very discontent, and we are
not happy with the reply we received on the A-level inquiry. We
are not accepting that. We are sending it back to your Department
or to you to think about again. We do take the quality of those
responses very seriously indeed and we are not happy we have not
achieved the same standard we had on ILAs this time.
Mr Normington: I am sorry about
that. I will personally have a look at what happened with the
A-level report and why you did not like it. I think the answer
on British Library is you propose something specific, specific
investment, and we have not made it, that is the digitisation
of some of their own material. We have not have given up on that.
Chairman: Mr Normington, as I said over
two hours is a cruel and unusual punishment, thank you very much
for your evidence.
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