Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180
- 186)
WEDNESDAY 5 MAY 2004
MR TIM
DAVIES, MS
SHEENA PICKERSGILL,
MR GEOFF
GARDNER, MR
JOHN SYKES,
MR ALLAN
EDMONDSON AND
MR STEVEN
SALMON
Q180 Mr Turner: What is the smallest
secondary school and the smallest primary school in each of the
three Local Education Authorities represented?
Mr Gardner: Our smallest primary
school is less than 20 pupils; the smallest secondary school is
probably about 800.
Mr Sykes: It is probably about
the same, slightly smaller in the secondary.
Mr Davies: About 500 for the secondary
and as low as 30-40 for the primary.
Q181 Mr Turner: I recognise it is
only 15%, but it is quite a large number. I was concerned that
one of the reasons you are transporting pupils so far is that
Local Education Authorities have been encouraged over many years
to close small village schools. Is that not at the root of the
problem, that you do not have the schools for the kids to go to
and that is why they have to get on buses?
Mr Davies: It was the policy in
the Seventies and Eighties to create fairly large comprehensive
schools which are now designated community colleges and in some
of our rural areas an individual school may well serve 500 square
miles of catchment area and 80% of the children are carried into
those schools, say 800 out of 1,000 at one or two of our largest
schools. In terms of primary schools, whilst at one point there
was a move towards area schools that did get reversed, and there
has been some protection of the smaller primary schools since
then. I think what has happened in the last 20 years is partly
lifestyle changes, in that even where children 20 or 30 years
ago were allowed to walk two miles to a village school from what
is still a reasonable catchment area for a village school, parents
now take them by car, so there has been a switch there. None of
those children have ever been entitled to assisted school transport.
From the transport statistics it is very apparent that it is the
two to three mile band of car journey distance where there has
been the biggest increase in the school run over the last 20 years.
Q182 Mr Turner: In other words, children
are able to walk two miles but not three?
Mr Davies: Generally parents will
not let primary children walk more than a mile.
Mr Sykes: That is an interesting
concept, whether you can redefine distances according to age in
terms of cycling and walking. The Danish system looked at whether
1.5 miles is the average sort of distance that an under eight
should be walking and then it changes according to age. That is
something that does not seem to be addressed in the Bill, whether
or not you are able to start to tease out within some of these
pilots whether there is a rule of thumb now that is beginning
to develop. Admittedly that will vary between urban and rural
schools. I realise that if you start to identify that sort of
requirement and then if there is not a safe route, and I find
how you define that quite complex, which you legally start to
identify as a safe route, then they get free transport.
Q183 Mr Turner: That is what you
meant, is it, Mr Sykes, by paragraph 7.1, the first bullet point,
because I did not understand what you were getting at there? You
mean that the Bill should set a limit for children of each age?
Mr Sykes: I would like to see
the pilots start to look at those two. I want to bring those out.
The Bill does not give any guidance towards that or suggest that
could be an outcome. It is an interesting outcome that I would
find fascinating in terms of what a legal definition of a safer
route is and how you maintain that and keep it safe.
Mr Davies: It was interesting
that the Transport Select Committee picked up on the Danish system
which looks at the age of a child against the safe route to school
and it may well be that that is something we should try and pilot
in this country.
Mr Sykes: We do relate a lot of
our promotional programmes around health issues and we have undertaken
a lot of research around health and certainly in my paper you
will see that we have completed research from University College
London which specifies that if a child walks to school they are
doing an output activity average equivalent to two hours of a
PE lesson. That is a really strong advert for parents to pick
up particularly at the moment, it is a key issue and we use that
quite a lot in our promotion material. I am feeling more comfortable
in saying 1.5 miles is a good distance for an under-eight to be
walking, but if it is a rural area and it is difficult and there
is not a safe route then you have to balance that back against
my three issues of health, safety and independence. A parent will
look at those three things and say, "You have given me a
great health message, but if it is not safe I don't like it."
Q184 Mr Turner: Safe in these terms,
is it largely safety from traffic or is it personal safety?
Mr Sykes: We never use the word
"safe"; we use "safer". I can never make a
route safe. I think it is a very casual use of the word which
is wrong.
Q185 Mr Turner: Ms Pickersgill is
disagreeing with one minor point between you. Is it safety through
traffic or personal safety that is driving youngsters into cars?
Ms Pickersgill: I can speak from
a parent's perspective and that was why I was disagreeing. Anything
that sets a limit, whether it be 1.5 miles/two miles/three miles,
as a parent you will look at the local circumstances yourself
and you will decide, "Is it safe for my child to walk to
school or cycle?" If it is too hilly, or whatever it happens
to be, that will determine whether you allow your child to walk.
This is why I referred earlier to looking at transport in its
broadest issues and linking in with other policies, whether they
be crime or whatever because you have to feel that your child,
if they are going to walk, is going to be safe on the streets
from what might be perceived elements of crime or whatever. There
is that bigger social issue that has to be addressed before you
can arbitrarily say at 1.5 miles your child is safe to walk.
Q186 Chairman: I am afraid we have
run out of time. Can I thank our witnesses. You have given us
absolute gems and nuggets of information. If you could remain
in contact with the Committee and if on your safer journey home
if there is something you think, "We wish we had told the
Committee this," e-mail us, phone us, tell us and let's remain
in communication. We will
have to come and see one of your yellow buses. What side of the
bus is the steering wheel?
Ms Pickersgill: You are okay,
it is on the right-hand side.
Chairman: It is on the British side,
is it?
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