Examination of Witnesses (Questions 420
- 439)
THURSDAY 13 MAY 2004
MR MIKE
HIRST, MR
STEVE BROACH,
MR DAVID
CONGDON, MS
JILL HARRISON
AND MR
DAVID BUTLER
Q420 Jonathan Shaw: Just on some
of the issues arising from the pilots, Mr Butler. One of the pilot
schemes suggested is a staggering of school hours. You are a member,
as you told us, of the School Travel Advisory Group which covers
the various departments in Whitehall. This suggestion has received
a mixed response. Have you a view on it? Has your organisation
a view on it?
Mr Butler: Yes we do. I think
we express a concern about staggered school start times and that
comes from the assumption, I have to say, that in a lot of households
there is more than one child of school age and equally in those
households they may not go to the same school. You could then
compound my example by saying that one of the parents is a teacher
at yet another school and potentially the other parent, who may
be actually part of the responsibility of getting their children
to school, has an employer who does not have staggered start times,
so let us pick a theoretical example of two children, one teacher
and one other parent, and then you have got the potential for
four different start times. I just think it becomes a logistical
nightmare.
In the absence of the Chairman, Valerie Davey
was called to the Chair
Q421 Jonathan Shaw: What about extended
days? There is this concern about extended days and the pilot
scheme. We cannot see, I think we heard from our earlier witnesses,
transport in isolation to the rest of the educational experience
of students. Do you think that what happens after school needs
to be taken into account as well?
Mr Butler: I do indeed but I would
have to express a degree of bias. I am blessed with a child who
took an interest in music at school and quite often some of that
activity used to take place after school. As we all know only
too well that is not the only activity which can take place after
school. In our particular situation there was a school bus in
the morning and there was a school bus in the afternoon (and I
think in fairness to Kent there was more than one) but if you
had a school activity which went on beyond a certain time, and
that was not difficult to find, there was no other option but
to go and collect that child.
Q422 Jonathan Shaw: I know Tunbridge
Wells reasonably well and that is an urban area but there are
outlying areas within the country, Rutland is one example that
has been mentioned, that have got a whole series of small schools.
How does one deal with that?
Mr Butler: I think the problem
I have just outlined is exacerbated and you end up relying on
parents to pick up that problem at the end of the day which in
some circumstances is possible but in some circumstances would
be very difficult for those parents. I think I would come back
though to wondering whether there is some possibility for innovation
here. Valerie Davey mentioned earlier on the concept of Dial-a-Ride
and if there were a way of extending that sort of scheme in that
situation, albeit in some form of preplanned manner, then that
could be a solution. It is a question of looking for innovative
responses.
Q423 Jonathan Shaw: There has to
be the revenue to pay for that. If we carry on as we are then
children in rural schools who are not able to get home from all
the advantages that an extended school curriculum offers are severely
disadvantaged, are they not? If we carry on with the rules as
they are at the moment, with the two miles and three miles and
with budgets continuing to go up—
Mr Butler: In terms of school
transport the parents that spoke to me during the course of the
earlier part the School Travel Advisory Group's work quite often
were giving me rural examples and the concerns that they had and
the difficulties that they had. You might have parents of children
who were not able to participate in free school transport but
who would have liked to have used an extended and paid for school
transport. I would like to see as one of the innovative practices
which actually open the boundaries that you can get this mixture
because in some places it can happen but in others it does not.
There is another area of innovation which potentially could be
trialled if you are thinking of the extended school day, and that
is rather than all of these activities necessarily happening at
the end of the school day, is it possible to have a larger break
in the middle of the school day when some of these activities
can take place and, therefore, the end of the school day becomes
later, yes, but it becomes later for all children at that school.
In some situations that may be appropriate, probably more appropriate
for secondary children because I think if you extend the school
day too long for younger children they would find that rather
difficult.
Jonathan Shaw: I am thinking of the parents
teaching at the primary school and they have got to hang around
at the school gates to take their child home to a rural area.
Q424 Mr Turner: I was just looking
at the figures and it would appear that the three rural authorities
with transport costs per child of under £400 are Durham,
Cornwall and the Isle of Wight. Is there anything that those authorities
have in common?
Mr Butler: I am sorry, not that
I am aware of.
Q425 Mr Turner: I just wondered if
it was anything to do with having more small rural primary schools
but maybe you are not aware of the answer to that.
Mr Butler: The issue of a lot
of rural primary schools in Cornwall I can understand. No, I am
sorry, I do not know of any reason why that should be.
Q426 Mr Turner: Clearly there is
a relationship between the way local authorities organise their
schools and the amount they spend on school transport.
Mr Butler: But that overlooks
the fact of do we have a situation where people in Cornwall or
Durham would feel that their school transport was inadequate?
I do not know. I am not making an accusation; I am just suggesting
there is a question there.
Q427 Mr Turner: From your earlier
answers, it seems utopia is when every parent has their child's
transport paid for by the taxpayer. That is a yes, is it?
Mr Butler: That would be a utopia
but it is totally impractical.
Q428 Mr Turner: It would not be a
utopia for the taxpayer, would it?
Mr Butler: What I am saying is
that I am sure if that was offered every parent would think, "That
is fantastic. Whichever government is about to bring this in I
will sign up to it, but can I also sign up to the clause that
says taxation will not increase at the same time".
Q429 Mr Turner: Okay. Good. So long
as that is your position, I understand that. One of my transport
operators has the requirement that no child under 14 shall travel
unless accompanied by a responsible person over the age of 14.
Do you think it is reasonable for parents to put their children
on the bus at a farm gate at 7.30 in the morning and not see them
again until 4.30 or 5.30 in the evening and for 90 minutes each
way for them to be accompanied by no-one other than the bus driver?
Mr Butler: I think it rather depends
on the bus driver and it rather depends upon the training that
the bus driver is given. If you look at the example of the work
that is done by some of the Yellow Bus scheme operators and the
trials that have been carried out, they go to great lengths to
train their bus drivers, not just in terms of being able to safely
operate the bus but also being able to ensure that the duty of
care that they have for the children on their bus is properly
dealt with. There are examples where people can actually deal
with that appropriately.
Q430 Mr Turner: In your earlier answers
you were very reluctant, and I understand why, to set any boundaries.
You have got a wide membership and doubtless you are trying to
give the views of all of them, but we have to actually make decisions
and one of the decisions we have to make is whether there should
be boundaries. I would like to know on what criteria you think
we should make those decisions. Okay, leave us to make the decisions
but tell us what things should be in our minds in deciding whether
to put these boundaries on the face of this Bill or should we
leave it entirely to the discretion of local authorities, which
is what the Bill does?
Mr Butler: I think you have to
leave a huge part of the setting of boundaries dependent upon
local circumstances and, therefore, in practice that is likely
to be your local authorities. The only thing that I would be concerned
about is that it is a much simpler system if it is more nationally
understood and more nationally based. If you decide you must provide
transport outside a two mile radius, and you must not allow someone
to travel on a bus for longer than 30 minutes, these would be
boundaries but you could not have that single boundary because
you have got the extreme difference of an inner city situation
and one which is a rural situation. I am sorry, I think the only
consequence is to allow that boundary setting to happen within
the settings in which they exist, ie the local authorities. Provision
is made within the Bill to actually consult the parents to make
sure that those parents who are affected by these decisions can
express their voice.
Q431 Mr Turner: I am very grateful
for that answer because it now opens up the question of how local
authorities are influenced to make these decisions. Do you think
parents have the political will or the political power to chuck
out the ruling lot if they make the wrong decisions?
Mr Butler: If you look at the
attendance at local elections you might take the view that perhaps
they do not have the will. Surely that is an issue of how you
consult with your parents. There are some authorities who go a
long way to say "We really do want to hear from you and we
want to engage with you". Here you have a situation where
consultation is vital and if the authority is going to be bringing
forward the scheme then it should be the authority's responsibility
to make sure that they encourage that consultation, a proper consultation.
Q432 Mr Turner: You are content for
local authorities to make these decisions?
Mr Butler: I see no other option
because you have got too many local circumstances which have got
to be addressed.
Q433 Mr Chaytor: I wanted to come
back on the point that Jonathan asked about the co-ordination
of the school day. You are vehemently against any staggering of
hours. I thought your suggestion of the extended gap in the middle
of the day was interesting, but would that not just put more pressure
at the end of the day because it would mean the end of the school
day would coincide precisely with the evening rush hour and in
terms of congestion it is just going to make the problem worse?
Mr Butler: Perhaps it would make
that aspect of the problem something to consider, but do not forget
if you did that how many school situations do you have now where
parents collecting their children from school do so perhaps after
some form of after-school activity or after-school club. Surely
we have a society now where there is a much greater situation
of parents or carers being employed and, therefore, perhaps that
would make things a bit easier for them. You might even get the
situation where on the parent's way home they can collect their
children. To me, that does not add congestion.
Q434 Mr Chaytor: Essentially you
are arguing for a nine to five school day with a two hour siesta
or sports session or music session, are you not?
Mr Butler: I am saying it is one
option which I think is an innovative idea and should be trialled.
I would love to see that trialled. It may be prove to be an absolute
nonsense but I think it would be a good idea to examine it.
Q435 Mr Chaytor: You will know of
the changes proposed to the 14-19 curriculum which envisage far
greater pupil movements between the days, particularly the concept
of the junior apprenticeship whereby some youngsters will be spending
two days a week at work, one day a week at college, two days a
week at school. How should that fit into the transport arrangements?
What do you see as the potential difficulties there?
Mr Butler: The potential difficulty
there is that you have just exacerbated your transport problem.
You have got some logistics that you can plan in terms of getting
children from home to school and you can produce a structure which
develops that because at the end of the day if that is a bus system
then your bus operators have got some planning to do which says,
"This is the route that I will take, this is the number of
people that I will carry and there is a charging mechanism, etc.,
etc". If you have now got to have multiple destinations because
that child could go to school three days a week and college two
days a week then all of a sudden you have got another logistic
to deal with. I think you were a little bit harsh earlier to say
that I remain 100% vehemently opposed to a staggered day; I said
there is a number of issues to consider. Is that a situation where
you can look at a staggering because in that situation perhaps
the staggering would be beneficial? For example, if your school
day was starting at nine but your college day was starting at
ten, does that mean your transport system can do the school and
then do the college?
Q436 Mr Chaytor: On the college you
obviously think the 16-19 phase should be firmly within the integrated
transport arrangements, do you? You are looking at local transport
arrangements, are you not, not just from 5-16 but 5-19?
Mr Butler: I am looking at a local
transport situation in its entirety.
Q437 Mr Chaytor: Just one final thing
pursuing the curriculum point. It has been argued that one of
the advantages of the expansion of specialist schools is that
this will enable pupils to move between the schools to get the
benefit of the specialism at the school down the road, so if you
are particularly strong on languages you may spend a few hours
a week in the language college down the road. Do you think that
is credible in terms of pupil movements and transport?
Mr Butler: Mr Shaw said that he
was familiar with Tunbridge Wells. There are already some practices
of that sort of nature going on in some of the schools in Tunbridge
Wells, but that has got nothing to do with transport, it is simply
that by schools co-operating together they can offer a wider curriculum.
Q438 Mr Chaytor: Do pupils walk from
school to school?
Mr Butler: In the particular example
that I am thinking of the schools are practically adjacent to
each other, so it is very straightforward. I think you gave the
example that your locality was something like 14 miles wide, was
it not? If you have one school at one end and one school at the
other end then you have got a transport problem. I think there
is another issue within the introduction of specialist schools.
We have got a situation where Government would like to see, and
positively encourage, the development of specialist schools. If
that is the case you are then going to have a parental expression
that they would like their child to go to this particular specialist
school and that may be a greater distance than what otherwise
would be regarded as being the most appropriate school and as
a result you have just made your transport situation worse.
Q439 Mr Chaytor: From your previous
answers you would expect there to be variable charging, so if
parents opted for a specialist school some distance away they
would pay more than going to the local school.
Mr Butler: I do not think you
can say that if the specialist school is being encouraged and
provided. Okay, there may well be an expression of parental preference
or parental option but if that is for the specialist school and
it happens to be a larger distance away, if you are saying "because
you have chosen that one you have got to pay the transport costs
rather than just going to the one next door", if the one
next door is not offering that specialism then, no, you should
be supporting the cost of the transport to the more distant one
because in those circumstances that then becomes the appropriate
school.
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