Examination of Witnesses (Questions 420
- 426)
MONDAY 10 NOVEMBER 2003
DR IAN
BIRNBAUM AND
MR PAUL
ROBINSON
Q420 Mr Chaytor: Mr Robinson, do
you think that the current arrangements for the appeals panels
are satisfactory, or do you think there ought to be a greater
distance between the appeals panel and the local authority?
Mr Robinson: I know that the Council
on Tribunals have talked about regional appeals. It works reasonably
well from my experience for community schools where effectively
parents come to the town hall to have appeals heard independently.
There is a perception amongst parents that when you apply to a
voluntary aided school or a foundation school and the appeal is
heard in the school itself, even though the people are appointed
by the governing body and are not the governors themselves, that
maybe does not provide the distance and independence they want.
There may be an issue there to look at. I think it is a question
of perception rather than there being anything particularly wrong
with those appeal panels but I know that some parents are worried
by it.
Q421 Mr Chaytor: Does each of you
have a figure for the cost of the appeals process in your own
authority? It would be interesting. I do not know whether research
has been done on this across the country, but I suggest it is
a staggeringly high figure which would surprise most people. Can
you give us an indication?
Mr Robinson: I had a feeling this
might be asked, but having said that and having talked to my people,
I have not been able to find a figure yet.
Q422 Mr Chaytor: Would you be able
to, if you went back and gave it some thought? Would you be able
to write to us with a reasonably reliable estimate, because it
would be valuable information?
Mr Robinson: I shall do my best.
Dr Birnbaum: I am sorry, I do
not have a figure. Obviously I have the number of appeals and
certainly I know that less resource is being expended because
of the reduction in the number of appeals, but I do not know precisely
what that resource is.
Q423 Mr Chaytor: Could you let the
Committee have something?
Dr Birnbaum: Yes, I could do an
estimate.[7]
Q424 Chairman: This has been a very
good session. May I finish by saying that one thing coming through
is that you have a fund of knowledge which we want to continue
tapping into? If you would not mind, we will follow up this session
with some queries from our staff and special advisers. A last
question I want to ask is that many people in this
complex world of education say that if it is not broken why fix
it? What are a couple of advantages you see in the system which
make it better? You are still going to have a whole range of schools
people who are less likely to want to go to and a whole range
of schools they really would like to go to. What is the purpose
of all this hard work creating a new system?
Dr Birnbaum: From my point of
view, the objectives are limited but they are very beneficial.
One person's multiple offers is another person's lack of offer.
There is no more anxious time for a parent than that transfer
of the child from primary to secondary. If it is going to take
months for them to find out what place they have and if they are
being told on 1 March there is actually no place at all and they
cannot be told where they are going, that is not a very good way
to treat parents and to treat kids. What the system does is to
reduce that to a minimum. It does not eradicate it, but it reduces
it to a minimum.
Mr Robinson: I cannot really add
anything to that. The system may not be broken at the moment,
but it has been creaking for a while in London and this will oil
that a little.
Q425 Chairman: You are both public
servants. If you were a politician, would you not be a little
worried that the most articulate and able grouping of your population
which can manage to work the system so well that they get four
or five offers, is suddenly going to be stopped from doing that?
Are they not the very chattering classes which can make your life
as a politician very difficult?
Dr Birnbaum: I experienced this
first hand because I introduced the system in Sutton and Sutton
parents are known to be fairly chattering.
Q426 Chairman: Not as bad as St Albans.
Dr Birnbaum: No, probably not.
We will have to compare notes on that. Yes, it is difficult, but
it is a matter of explaining that actually you are not taking
away choice, the situation is the same. It is just that they have
to decide up front what they most want rather than being a bit
more leisurely about it and deciding when they know what they
are being offered. That is the main difference. Once you get that
across, it is not as radical in relation to choice as it first
seems.
Mr Robinson: My experience is
that when you explained things to people they apply common sense
and they can see that it is right, that this is what we should
be doing. In part why we did not do it before was because we did
not have the technology. Now we have it I believe people will
support it.
Chairman: This has been most informative
and we are all very grateful for your attendance. Thank you very
much.
7 Note by witness: See Ev 107. Back
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