Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1080
- 1099)
THURSDAY 5 FEBRUARY 2004
MR SIMON
FLOWERS, MR
GRAHAM MYERS,
MR STUART
WILSON, MR
TERRY HALL
AND MR
JIM WINTER
Q1080 Mr Gibb: What about nine?
Mr Flowers: If he has the ability
for seven, if he has the ability for nine, if he has the ability
for 13, some of our children do 13, we can deliver with the children
that have the ability, we just do not have very many of them.
We are perceived in the league tables as being under-performing
because we do not have many children who are very bright.
Mr Myers: That was the point I
was trying to make, it does influence you. I was asked a straight
question.
Chairman: You were being even-handed.
Q1081 Jeff Ennis: It is really a
supplementary question along the lines of the diversity agenda
in terms of the secondary education model and the schools model
and the fact that Wakefield has taken advantage of that in that
nearly 11 schools out of 18 are specialist schools, we have a
situation in Wakefield where we have Catholic schools open to
people such as yourself, Graham, of Catholic persuasion but when
it comes to primary schools a lot of the areas have Church of
England schools and Catholic schools and yet when we get to the
secondary sector we still have a predominance of Catholic schools,
we have very few Church of England aided secondary schools and
my question is directed towards you, Graham, do you think it is
better from a diversity point of view if authorities like Wakefield
ought to look at establishing a Church of England or ecumenical
secondary school to balance up that level of diverse division?
Mr Myers: A straightforward answer
would be, yes, to equalise the situation. However, I though the
idea was to integrate people irrespective of colour, creed or
faith. The more we keep establishing different religious schools,
the worse the situation will become.
Q1082 Jeff Ennis: You would prefer
the Catholic schools to become ecumenical?
Mr Myers: Very probably. Again
it is back to confidence and a perception of how those schools
may perform if it goes that way, that is the worry from my point
of view. What I see in Catholic schools at the moment is that
there is very good discipline, and I do not dispute there may
be in other schools as well, but I have seen others schools that
do not have that discipline. I do not know if that is tied to
religion or not. Certainly the Catholic schools that I have visited
have been very good on that aspect.
Q1083 Jeff Ennis: I do not know if
you want to comment on my strategy for Wakefield.
Mr Winter: It is an interesting
point to make. I would say that Catholicity or adherence to the
Church of England is not so much about aided status or community
status, I think the ethos as far as we can is about maintenance
of discipline. We have a Church of England controlled school that
delivers if you like a Church of England ethos, so I am not sure
it is about aided or community status. We recognise that all schools
have a different flavour and have different things to offer. I
said earlier on they reflect their community and I think that
is as true of church schools as it is of specialist technology
colleges. It is important to remember we do not select by aptitude
in Wakefield, that was a deliberate decision. In that sense our
schools are still community schools and the only admissions criteria
are the ones that you see in your handbook that you have. We are
not moving children in to those areas of specialism, what we are
doing is trying to ensure that the schools do deliver distinctive
flavours that can then be made available to the wider community,
art college expertise would be made available right across the
piece, there is evidence of us doing that within Wakefield.
Q1084 Chairman: This Committee looked
at diversity and the Government's plan for diversity and enthusiasm
for diverse academies, foundation schools and specialist schools
and all of that—that is a separate inquiry—do you
not think that people like Simon and his colleague deserve a level
playing field? On the one hand they do not have a level playing
field because of the whole system of admissions you cannot have
a community school and on the other hand all the time you have
11 out of 18 schools with £50,000, however it is raised,
it is not only not a level playing field, it is getting less level
by the minute. When we had your briefing paper you had nine specialist
schools now you have 11, my heart goes out to Simon and Stuart,
it is getting more tilted all of the time.
Mr Winter: If that is an argument
for fairer funding I would certainly agree. I see no reason why
a school cannot deliver a distinct ethos, I see no problem with
that at all. The issue for all of us is about having a fairer
funding regime. If you are saying that you do not believe that
the funding regime in the UK for secondly schools is fair then
I would find that difficult to disagree with.
Q1085 Chairman: What I am saying
is that these two guys and their schools are the ones that seem
to me to need the extra help, support and resources for staff
and equipment and everything else yet they seem because they are
not special category to miss out on everything and at the same
time down the road, across the authorities others are getting
much more.
Mr Winter: In one sense I would
agree with that because that is true. In another sense in terms
of other streams of funding and support that schools are receiving
there are other factors that you need to take into account, it
is not simply a matter of saying this is a specialist school or
not. There is other funding coming into the authority for other
types of work, some of which will benefit Simon and Stewart and
others will not. The funding system is complex and it does not
treat all schools fairly.
Q1086 Chairman: We have done a report
on school funding and we noticed how complex it is and I think
the Secretary of State is about to find out how complex it is.
Mr Wilson: I would just like to
make two points, if I may, when we look at averages in terms of
the data it can sometimes hide how well individuals and groups
of pupils perform within that school. I have been quite stunned
by the quality of work, academic and otherwise, national awards
have been won against very strong competition, national technology
awards and in other areas. In many schools there is a lot of success.
What I want to emphasise and one thing I want to acknowledge is
that at the moment our school Featherstone has a journey to make
and I see that, the statistics are available to identify that
journey. The first thing that you do when you become a new head
teacher is recognise that and then address it. I would not want
to hide behind that challenge, I think it is a challenge that
we are ready and able to face and one that we will succeed with
over time. The issue is that however you present the data—and
I would agree that the move to a value-added data is positive,
that makes the situation better—that again does not tell
the whole story, as was mentioned earlier.
Chairman: What I am getting at is here
we have two recent reports from Ofsted that urban schools are
not doing well, they are finding it tough to lift themselves,
that is what the data shows. In one sense we are here and we are
hearing evidence that there are some very good reasons, in terms
of admissions, that that might be the case. It is what I described
as an uphill struggle on an uneven playing field. One of the startling
things we saw was—it was a school that was in special measures—the
George Dickson School in Birmingham, that had been rock-bottom
and a charismatic head with a lot of assistance and Excellence
in Cities money and he just turned that round—he got a knighthood
for his efforts. There is hope for both of you—arise, arise!
He had the Excellence in Cities capability as well as a great
deal of backing from Tim Brighouse, the LEA and also Tim Brighouse's
cross-matching of schools and collegiate system. We also—we
will send both of you both lots of evidence—interviewed
a head teacher in Slough who took over a school I think which
in a very short time had four heads in two years and she had arrived
and again I think made a magnificent job of turning the school
round. Both of them had the resources behind them whereas I think
you are just in the category which does not.
Q1087 Paul Holmes: One of the big
items of education spending in some LEASs can be school transport.
When we were taking evidence in London the Norfolk LEAs talked
about a big chunk of their budget being used, Wakefield covers
a fairly big geographical area how much money is spent on transport
funding?
Mr Winter: The cost of transport
funding is significant, we spend just getting on for £2.5
million on transport. What we found over the last couple of years
is the cost of individual transport contracts have gone up significantly,
and I think that has been reflected nationally. There are some
issues round a shortage of specialist transport and the cost of
that. I think also the move towards inclusion in mainstream schools
has meant that there have been more journeys to get youngsters
into mainstream schools rather than to take them to a special
school. The issue round mainstream schools in terms of accessibility
is one that we are involved with at the moment because it is not
just about transport, it is about how you get to school, it is
about local transport plans, it is about travel to school and
walking to school plans. We are involved in some review of our
transport policy and we are trying to encourage more young
people to travel independently and also to walk to school wherever
possible.
Q1088 Paul Holmes: Two particular
things come out of transport in relation to admissions and in
relation to preference and choice, one is to do with faith schools,
one third of LEAs have stopped funding transport on the grounds
of faith, what do you do here?
Mr Winter: We still provide transport
and we have no immediate plans to stop it.
Q1089 Paul Holmes: If a parent wants
to choose a school on the grounds of faith 15 miles away they
have to pay transport and that skews the admissions to the parents
who can afford it. If you have specialist school policy, and you
have for 11 out of 18, and if a parent said "I want to send
my kid 10 miles away but I cannot afford the transport" would
you pay for that?
Mr Winter: No.
Paul Holmes: That works against specialist
schools and against parental preference unless you can afford
it.
Q1090 Mr Turner: Why did you make
that decision not to provide the transport that Paul referred
to?
Mr Winter: A question of cost,
the costs would be enormous and we also believe that schools that
are specialist schools and also comprehensive schools provide
local provision for local youngsters. Remember our schools do
not select by aptitude, we believe for youngsters the local school
will provide that well-rounded education. The way which we address
specialist issues is to share that speciality and there are schools
and colleges which will share their expertise with other schools
within the area without the need for youngsters to travel. What
is happening in terms of the 14 to 19 year olds is that teachers
will travel to where the youngsters are. Where you talk about
a collegiate approach in the North East of Wakefield I think staff
will increasingly travel to provide that specialist teaching to
youngsters rather than expecting youngsters to all get on a bus
or coach and travel to the provision.
Q1091 Mr Turner: None of that answer
applies to the Catholic schools?
Mr Winter: As far as Catholic
schools are concerned we continue to provide transport, we always
have done. We believe that youngsters' parents ought to be able
to select on the basis of religious belief without being prejudiced.
Q1092 Chairman: What about the Church
of England schools?
Mr Winter: We do not have any
VA Church of England schools.
Q1093 Paul Holmes: On the grounds
of equity and parental preference you will pay for a child to
go ten miles to a Catholic school on the grounds of faith, what
if you have a parent in some area where their local school has
a pretty strong religious ethos and they are atheist, would you
pay to transport their child 10 miles down the road to a school
that has a much less religious ethos, would you fund that?
Mr Winter: The way I read it is
that community schools are there for local children and local
children are expected to attend their local schools because all
schools are ecumenical, they educate all children equally. I would
expect children to go to the local school.
Q1094 Chairman: What about Muslim
girls, would you provide their transport?
Mr Winter: No, we would not.
Q1095 Chairman: Why not?
Mr Winter: First of all the Muslim
girls school is not within the state sector and therefore different
rules apply. As things stand at the moment we would not provide
transport in that circumstance.
Mr Chaytor: Can I clarify this, I understand
there is a voluntary aided Catholic school within Wakefield, on
the borders of Wakefield, if I wish to send my child to a voluntary
aided Anglican school two minutes away in Barnsley—
Jeff Ennis: There are not any, that is
the point I was making earlier.
Q1096 Mr Chaytor: The issue is that
if there were -
Mr Winter: We cannot answer hypotheticalals
Q1097 Mr Chaytor:—you would
not provide travel costs to go to a faith school outside of the
LEA?
Mr Winter: It has not arisen to
my knowledge in the recent past.
Q1098 Mr Chaytor: It could arise.
Mr Winter: We will consider our
policy if it does arise.
Q1099 Chairman: It is very interesting
about the Church of England, there is Simon sitting there with
all of the problems he has, with a name like that, right next
door to where the Bishop lives. Simon, the money that you are
looking for could it not come from that sort of focus?
Mr Flowers: I have thought about
it.
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