Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1100
- 1119)
THURSDAY 5 FEBRUARY 2004
MR SIMON
FLOWERS, MR
GRAHAM MYERS,
MR STUART
WILSON, MR
TERRY HALL
AND MR
JIM WINTER
Q1100 Mr Chaytor: On the diversity
issue is there any evidence that the growth of a more diverse
range of specialist schools has increased the number of parents
choosing on the basis of the specialism or does it have no effect
whatsoever? What I am trying to say is there is evidence parents
choose on the basis of diversity rather than on the basis of perceived
quality.
Mr Winter: From my perspective
it is very difficult to say because it is not one of our criteria,
we do not ask parents to give reasons why they choose, other than
special needs. Our policy would not allow parents to travel huge
distances to a special school because of the distance criteria.
We do not have evidence one way or the other.
Q1101 Mr Chaytor: For parents who
are mobile it would not be an issue if they travelled 10 or 15
miles and trooped their children off.
Mr Winter: If they could get into
the school, they would not be able to get in because of the distance
criteria.
Mr Chaytor: There is no evidence that
it has really made a difference.
Q1102 Mr Gibb: Can I go to Graham
Myers' point about choice versus preference, the theory used was
there should be choice and the theory was good schools would expand
and less popular schools would contract and ultimately close or
become good schools. I just want to know from Jim Winter, if the
Catholic school has hugely expanded itself, they have expanded
to cope with that demand, what are you doing to help the popular
schools on your list of 18 schools to expand are or you not letting
them because you have surplus places?
Mr Winter: We do not have much
in the way of surplus places. We have allowed St Wilfrid's to
expand, we have supported their request because we are short of
places in that area so therefore has been some expansion. Remember,
of course, the Catholic schools can take non-Catholic children
even though 75% or 80% must be Catholic children. St Wilfrid's
will soak up some of the demand in that area. If you look at the
schools in the area you will see that pretty well all of them
are full.
Q1103 Mr Gibb: What about Ossett?
Mr Winter: There has been some
expansion but it is on a very tight site and there is not a lot
scope to expand that school.
Q1104 Mr Gibb: If there was a request
from a school that had the physical capacity to expand would you
allow it to expand even though there are surplus places in Featherstone
and Cathedral?
Mr Winter: It depends very much
on circumstances but as a general answer I would say no because
it is about school place planning. We are not in the business
of sucking children out of schools to go to more popular schools.
We want local schools to serve local children well and to meet
their needs well. We are not generally in the business of expanding
popular schools to meet demand.
Q1105 Mr Gibb: Does that not undermine
the whole ethos behind the 1988 Education Act?
Mr Winter: I do not think so.
Q1106 Chairman: Terry, you have been
waiting patiently to get in.
Mr Hall: I would like to go back
to your suggestion that we saw the Bishop of Wakefield, being
a strong Church of England member I know that Wakefield suffers
through the church exactly like we do through the schools, we
have no money. The parish share is absolutely nil, so I think
the idea of going to the Bishop and asking him for a gift will
not be met.
Chairman: The Church of England nationally
in a recent report suggested it wanted to expand the number of
secondary schools that were in its remit, it has less than it
wants, if nationally it looks for more schools I merely suggested
it could be a marriage made in heaven between Simon and the bishop!
He could be a conduit. I am meeting him next week, some of my
colleagues have been invited to come to my room and meet him.
Q1107 Jeff Ennis: For the sake of
the record I was going to ask our witnesses who should set the
admissions policy, Central Government, the LEAs or should it be
up to individual schools to determine their own individual admissions
policy? We discussed this in the earlier session of course.
Mr Winter: I believe it should
be the LEA, not just because I work for the LEA, but I believe
there needs to be consistency in a defined geographical area.
I think local education authorities are best placed to know the
local needs and provisions in the area and are therefore best
placed to set the admissions policy.
Q1108 Jeff Ennis: I would like to
hear from the other witnesses as well.
Mr Wilson: I would agree that
the LEA should set the admissions policy because I think the principle
of getting as close to a decision as possible is a sound starting
principle. There are dangers of a school setting its own admissions
policy across the area. The LEA seems to be as close as is manageable,
and I appreciate others views on that.
Mr Flowers: I agree. Personally
I think the Government need to have a look at what their role
is in this and give the LEA more freedom to adapt to the local
conditions.
Q1109 Chairman: Do you have a local
parish council in your patch?
Mr Flowers: No.
Mr Winter: No.
Q1110 Chairman: There are no grass-roots
in that way.
Mr Myers: It is very difficult.
I am back to the previous place I was at before. It depends what
benefits there are going to be attached to that particular school
if they have their own admissions policy, can run it themselves
and whether by cherry-picking the best candidates they are going
to get additional funding from central government to promote their
own ideals. Back to the unselfish bit, that would be very unfair
on everybody else if that was the case and would lead to an "us"
and "them" situation.
Mr Hall: My relationship with
the LEA as Chairman of the governors, representing the governors
of Wakefield is very good. Providing that we meet with Mr McLeod
on a regular basis I have no fear about leaving it to the LEA
because he would tell the governors what he was doing and that
is of paramount importance.
Chairman: A very sound point.
Q1111 Paul Holmes: Returning to the
final part of my question, I am not picking on Wakefield, the
point I want to make is about what I see as institutional bias
in terms of parental preference, it would be interesting to have
a comment from Terry from a Church of England point of view and
from Graham from a Catholic point of view. If a parents said "because
of my religious belief I do not want my child to go to my local
junior school", in this case a Church of England school in
Sheffield, but to go a few miles down the road in the Peak District,
you have to go some miles down the road and that means transport
and there is no LEA. On the grounds of your belief you do not
want your child to go to a strong religious school yet they pay
for transport costs to go to a Catholic school, to go to a Church
of England school, to go to a Muslim school or to go to a Jewish
school yet it seems to me institutional bias within our state
system in favour of one group of parents preference on faith grounds
against another group of parents on non-faith grounds. I would
be interested in your comments.
Mr Myers: I think I can understand
where you are coming from on that one. From my children's point
of view they are happy with the day and how it works within their
current school, a Catholic school in Barnsley. It is a good belief
for them and a strong discipline for them to be brought up with.
I think the environment helps them with other subjects, the discipline
is there through the faith and that carries them through other
subjects accordingly. I do not know what the outcome would be
if I was told they had to go to a school that was possibly not
as religious—and I do not want to go down that track as
such—without that strong desire for something that drives
the school on. It is finding that strength in other schools to
ensure that children get behind something. In a Catholic school
it is pretty easy to get behind the religious faith and go down
that track, that seems to carry them through. It is finding that
strength in some other quarter in other schools that do not have
that strong belief which is hard.
Q1112 Paul Holmes: The taxpayer would
fund your transport costs for your preference based on your faith
but for another parent who would not want their child to be in
a local faith junior school they would not get their transport
costs funded.
Mr Myers: It is not fair, it could
not be fair in its own right. Then again, I suspect local authority
hands are tied in some areas, the amount of cash they have available
to them and they will have a policy to follow. It is like the
admissions policy, it has a strict, laid down criteria that you
follow, but if you have more cash you can widen the criteria.
Mr Hall: My children went to a
Church of England school, I moved house so that they could, but
that suited me as well as the children. That faith, as Graham
said, that was given to them builds not only their spiritual side
but their cultural side as well and I can see now that my children's
children, my grandchildren, have the same belief, they go to this
school. I do not see it as being fair or unfair. What I see is
the fact that my children went to a Church of England school,
they received the education I wanted them to receive and it stood
them in excellent stead, as two of them have gone to Cambridge
and one decided to join the police.
Q1113 Chairman: I agree there is
one successful person there!
Mr Hall: Probably.
Mr Winter: Is the school a voluntary
aided school or a community school?
Q1114 Paul Holmes: I am not sure
in either case.
Mr Winter: Catholic secondary
schools do not have geographical catchment areas so in that sense
there is always a community school close by, a defined community
school. It may well be the same in your case, the problem is where
you have a single school in an isolated village and there is little
choice and it is difficult to go elsewhere. If it was a community
school the governors have a responsibility to ensure that the
school reflects the needs of the local community as far as they
can. There will always be schools that emphasise sport or art
or religion more. In one sense you have to accept that you have
to accept the rough with the smooth. If it is a voluntary aided
school that is a different issue, there is an argument to say
there should be a geographical catchment area in the same way
there is for community schools.
Q1115 Mr Turner: Jim, in answer to
Jeff you implied it was necessary to have consistency across the
authority as a reason why the LEA should be in charge, why is
it necessary to have consistency?
Mr Winter: I think you will find
that most local authorities up down the country have relatively
consistent policies. With the code of practice what is happening
is nationally it is driving local authorities towards greater
consistency about certainty for parent. I think it is about ensuring
that people are treated well. I would be concerned if one of our
schools gave priority to the children of staff at the school,
I know it happens in some local authorities, over other children
who live locally. Therefore I think the policy we have, which
is quite indiscriminate, is the right way. I feel all our schools
should have that otherwise, first of all, there is no fairness
and perceived bias in respect of the children of staff of the
school but just as importantly to ensure that local children can
go to local schools. That is why I would be concerned if there
was an inconsistency across the district. I will not talk about
selection, you are not asking about selection today. Selection
means that some local children cannot go to local schools. Some
would argue that is a good thing, the converse to that is I have
seen it happen to children who live two or three doors away from
a high school, a grammar school and they are not able to go to
their local school. I have real difficulties with that.
Q1116 Mr Pollard: I wanted to come
out of the closet and admit I am Roman Catholic. We were in California
recently and one of the universities had a specialist teacher
training college that gave a two year qualification to teachers
teaching in difficult schools and difficult areas, have you thought
about doing anything like that? If you get the best teachers you
stand a better chance of raising standards because you will inspire
that?
Mr Flowers: That is a good point.
We do a lot of work with ITT and GTP students in school, a lot
more than any school I have ever seen, apart from one up the road.
We find that the calibre of students through GTP is particularly
strong and through ITT when they come into an inner-city agenda
they find it very, very tough. Maybe we have had a bad run recently
but we have had several give up the profession because the workload
and the pressures of job were so tough. If there was a different
way of training them so they can be brought into it more—
Q1117 Mr Pollard: Recognise it is
a career progression.
Mr Flowers: There is a fast track
teaching system. What I am saying is if the teacher training was
to b invested in in a slightly different way we could secure these
teachers and that would make all of the difference to our type
of schools.
Mr Wilson: I would like to argue
to support working with not only teachers when they join the profession
but also with student teachers. Again, like Simon, we see that
as a big part of our role. I think we sometimes underestimate
the gift of the teachers that are in all of our schools, what
we tend to find is that people are differentiated in their giftedness,
in a sense, some teachers work extremely well in one context,
some in another. I have certainly got experience of different
authorities where a number of identified gifted teachers were
moved into a different school that was having a difficult time
and they all left within a month. It is not a simple situation,
it is not the individual it is the interaction between the individuals,
be those teachers, managers, leaders, pupils and parents, et cetera.
The point that the teacher is key I would agree with totally,
the teacher and the pupil and the relationship between them.
Mr Pollard: The view in this system was
that you could not just send one teacher, you had to send half
a dozen and therefore you felt they were a community themselves
and they bring their expertise and raise standards.
Chairman: That is a very good point,
we did find that. We also found mentoring afterwards was so important.
That gave commitment and mentoring later and they had 82% rate
of retention that year compared to 60% normally.
Q1118 Jonathan Shaw: Jim, you said
to me earlier informally that you read our session at Slough and
the issue that we have pursued about children in public care and
you said that is a top priority for Wakefield, as it is for Barnsley,
as it is for Thomas a Becket, I do not see that in the list of
others?
Mr Winter: We do for all of our
Catholic LEA schools but not explicitly this year. There is a
time lag in terms of amending the policy. We have met with them
very recently and I have spoken to the diocese just a couple of
days ago in preparation for it and they are absolutely clear children
in public care will be the top priority.
Jonathan Shaw: Thank you.
Q1119 Chairman: That was the last
question. It leaves me to say what a good session it has been,
both the informal and formal, we really got to the heart of the
matter. We were delighted by the reception, we were delighted
the West Yorkshire Police were kind enough to make sure we were
secure and safe, I hope the lady sitting at the back has learned
a great deal from our deliberations. Thank very much to Jenny
Price and Kevin Swift and the five people who have given us their
time.
Mr Winter: On behalf of the LEA
thank you very much for coming, you are very welcome any time.
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