Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-63)
11 MARCH 2004
MR ALAN
WOODS
Q60 Chairman: Is not one of the problems
here that we are really coping with unsustainable consumption
patterns? I wondered whether you or anybody else has done any
analysis on what proportion of cost of our weekly spending ends
up on the street?
Mr Woods: I think it is about
unsustainable consumption. I do not think anybody has looked at
it in terms of cost. I can tell you that local authorities are
planning to spend nearly £500 million this year on street
cleansing. I suppose you could work out that as a proportion of
people's council tax spent on cleaning it up. That plus the cost
of the product would produce a staggering sum.
Q61 Chairman: You said a problem is teenagers
and there seems to be a slight difference of opinion between your
analysis of that and the previous witness's, who suggested that
teenagers were collectively a form of a sweetness and light, which
did not strike a familiar chord with many of us. Teenagers do
not pay council tax anyway so tough!
Mr Woods: I think the only difference
between Louise's interpretation and mine is that we know that
there are certain groups of teenagers who need to have behavioural
change. On a more general point, are teenagers part of the solution?
Yes, of course they are. However, we do have to recognise the
real world in which teenagers live and you or me telling them
not to litter is not going to be very high on their radar. We
have start to use some of the tactics of the advertising industry
to get our message across in a much more effective way rather
than just: "Do not do it because somebody might stop you."
Q62 Chairman: Final question on the magistrates,
who came in for a bit of flack not only today but in previous
sessions. We had some evidence from Mr Max Rathmell, the Chair
of the Spen Valley Civic Society who told us in his memorandum:
"As for magistrates, special mention should be made. They
are hopeless. They consistently fail to take environmental crime
seriously." Would you agree with that? Mr Rathmell is not
alone, by the way.
Mr Woods: No, I think there is
a level of inconsistency that has been applied by the courts in
these areas and when local authorities take the trouble to take
prosecutions forward to the court, what they are seeing is that
the costs of doing so are prohibitive so that those costs are
never recovered. There has been discussion before, I do not know
whether this will come up again about having some form of green
courts within the court system. I do not know whether that is
possible. I am not a legal expert so I could not comment. It would
seem sensible to me that if you are having to deal with an issue
at one level which might involve GBH or some form of physical
violence and then at the next moment you are having to deal with
a littering offence, as a human being you would relatively weigh
those up. I think we need to look at the way in which we have
reparation orders. I think one of the things we should be using
them much more as the way we make people repay their debt to society
by getting them to engage in the cleaning up of some of the problems
they are causing. I wholeheartedly support the Community Service
Orders and also there is the non-payment of fines imposed by the
court, which should have some form of environmental reparation
as well. I am delighted to see that the Home Office is starting
to look at this and see whether that can be introduced into this
country.
Q63 Chairman: Do you feel just lastly
that the failure of the Magistrates' Courts, which I think you
suggested and many other people acknowledge, is really the reason
why we have this accumulation of alternative remedies, all sorts
of strategies and initiatives and codes and advertising and ideas
and documents about Teenage Dirt Bags? If the courts were doing
their job do you not think life would be a lot simpler?
Mr Woods: If one believes that
the prison population is now at its maximum, one would presume
that they are doing their job insofar as they can send people
to prison. What has to happen is there has to be a variety of
approaches because this problem is getting worse and the ultimate
deterrent of either fining or imprisonment does not seem to be
working. I think we need to have much more front of pipe solutions,
we have to try and convince people that their behaviours are incorrect,
we have got to have some elements where they are involved in cleaning
up, we have got to give the community the opportunity to work
with local authorities, and the local authorities have got to
accept some responsibility to provide leadership in these areas.
That is all part of the package and I think the courts are the
end result. The other thing which is a failure in the court system
is trying to rely on fining only. If we rely on fining that is
not a long-term strategy and the costs will just multiply.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed,
you have been very helpful.
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