Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-43)
16 MARCH 2004
JIM SHERIDAN
MP, GERALDINE SMITH
MP, MR PETER
ALLENSON AND
MR GARY
BRISLEY
Q40 Chairman: They way I read it it does,
that is what the minister's focus was on. Can I just ask you finally
on the question of the Bill, how bombproof is it to gangmasters
reinventing themselves? Consider this scenario: a gangmaster buys
a farm in East Anglia; it has a very large labour force; his next-door
neighbour invites his help and a large number of people cross
to his neighbour's farm and money exchanges hands for a harvesting
job; the man then takes his large labour force back to his farm;
ostensibly, they are farm workers, they are not in a gang. Does
your Bill cover that kind of reinvention scenario?
Mr Sheridan: It is similar to
sub-contracting and I will ask Gary to answer that.
Mr Brisley: We are working with
Defra to ensure that there are no loopholes whatsoever. So, on
issues such as that, we are working out with them how we can ensure
that nobody escapes a gangmaster's licence. Going back to the
point you made about Alun Michael's comments at the end of the
debate, the Bill that we worked out with Defra quite clearly states
that it does cover agriculture, horticulture, fisheries and shellfish,
so it does cover the whole gamut of the agricultural sector. On
the specific issue of subcontractors, a licence will be required
to be held by anybody supplying and/or supervising labour. So,
anybody who is engaged in those practices who does not have a
licence will be operating illegally.
Q41 Mr Drew: I have just done some work
in the care sector in my constituency and I was surprised at the
degree to which care workers were being organised from abroad
to come in on genuine work permits. What happens if gangmasters
go offshore? What accountability then?
Mr Brisley: Obviously we cannot
have a Bill that extends beyond the borders of the United Kingdom,
but what we can do is ensure that the minute somebody collects
labour at an airport or at a dockside, then that person is then
classed as a gangmaster. I presume that anybody operating overseas
will have to arrange for somebody to collect and supply that labour.
It is going to be very difficult to phone from Gibraltar and direct
20 workers to a farm in Norfolk. Somebody is going to have to
pick them up and leave them there and the person doing that is
therefore the employee or the agent of the gangmaster and they
will be required to have a licence to operate in the UK.
Q42 Mr Lepper: This Bill—and let
us assume that it will be successful—concentrates on agriculture
in the widest sense as you suggested. I just wondered if the trade
union colleagues present believe that there are other areas of
employment in which a similar form of registration is needed for
gangmasters. David Drew has mentioned the care sector and I was
thinking in particular of the catering sector. I just wondered
what your views are on that.
Mr Brisley: I think you have recognised
that gangmaster placements do go wider than agriculture and you
have mentioned areas such as construction. However, within the
constraints of a Private Member's Bill, we had to address an area
where we thought that the excesses of gangmasters were at their
particular worse in their dealings with the most vulnerable, which
is why we concentrated on agriculture. We do recognise that the
issue and the problem does go far wider than that.
Q43 Patrick Hall: Are you saying that
the Bill excludes construction?
Mr Brisley: It does.
Jim Sheridan: It is purely agriculture.
Chairman: May I thank all four of you
for contributing your further views. We have greatly benefited
from what you have had to say. If there are any further issues
that you want to comment on in the light of the exchanges, please
feel free to make a further written submission to the Committee.
As we always say, the only thing you cannot undo is that which
you have said. So, thank you very much for coming before us.
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