Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-92)
16 MARCH 2004
MR BILL
HUGHES AND
MR GERRY
LIDDELL
Q80 Chairman: So we have to assume that
whatever the Immigration Service here, they dispense to all of
the other players who are not at your table. You made the point
that your intelligence and involvement in this area has been increasing
over the last 12 months, you have wired together gangmasters,
illegal people trafficking and drugs came out of the case to which
Mr Mitchell referred. Would it not be reasonable to assume that
these other departments, all of whom have an interest in the matter,
should be rather more directly wired in to your overview intelligence
gathering and informing role?
Mr Hughes: Are you referring specifically
to the issue around gangmasters or around organised immigration
working?
Q81 Chairman: Yes, because that is what
we are involved in. It seems that in the context of heavy loss
of human life, because 58 Chinese were banged up in a lorry some
time ago, we have now had 20 people killed out in Morecambe Bay,
there were two or three tragically killed in a railway accident,
there are big health and safety issues. There are all these other
criminal issues swirling around involved in this. I see in the
literature about the work of triads. There appear to be all kinds
of things of which I have no detailed knowledge but which keep
coming back when you discuss gangmasters and they are, if you
like, the tip of the iceberg in many of the cases of which you
have considerable knowledge that are going on. What surprises
me is the fact that you do not have round the table once a quarter
all the people who have an interest in this subject to exchange
what they see out there on the landscape and then say, "Well,
now you've got this bigger picture you can go back operationally
and do whatever you've got to do to deal with the picture."
I do not get the impression that that is what you are doing.
Mr Hughes: That is exactly what
we do. We have a high level group within Reflex which are the
high level representatives from the various agencies involved.
Q82 Chairman: But the agencies that have
a direct operational responsibility for the gangmaster issues
are not involved in your high level group because you said so
earlier.
Mr Hughes: That is right. As I
say, the intelligence picture that is given to us comes from both
the National Criminal Intelligence Service and from the Immigration
Intelligence Service.
Q83 Chairman: Let me turn this round
the other way. When I was a Home Office minister I went to the
National Criminal Intelligence Service on occasions to be briefed
about various important matters. Have you had any kind of collective
session of briefing to all of the senior ministers in the government
departments who are relevant to this issue. In other words, have
you had an Employment minister, a Trade minister, a Home Office
minister, a Defra minister or a Treasury minister sitting down
round the table saying, "Gentlemen, ladies, this is what
we see about this high level criminality activity which is impinging
on many of the areas you are interested in," and one of them
is the illegal employment of labour? Has that ever happened?
Mr Hughes: No.
Q84 Chairman: Do you think it should?
Would you value the opportunity of such an audience?
Mr Hughes: I would. We work very
closely, as you know, with Home Office ministers anyway. The issue
around Reflex is that we involve those agencies that can and do
provide the assistance to us. In terms of gangmasters, it is a
matter around illegal working and those who exploit and that is
why we are seeking to get more co-operation and more work involved
at local force level, Level 2 and Level 1. In terms of the high
level approach that you are talking about, yes, it would be quite
valuable to do that in those circumstances. At the moment we are
operating quite effectively with a high level group that pulls
together those senior members of government agencies that can
assist us in dealing with this specific problem, so a high level
group to set strategies and tactical level groups at which we
can operate and task operations to be performed and committed.
Patrick Hall: If an issue which overlaps
your main area of interest, ie parts of a gangmaster operation,
is not specifically looked at at the higher level that you are
involved in why would you expect the layers below that to do that?
Mr Hughes: I do not quite understand
what you mean.
Q85 Patrick Hall: I think you implied,
and I do not want to misquote you, that you thought that these
issues were being dealt with at a lower level. We have the impression
that the level of co-operation, awareness and working together
is bitty to say the least. Since you are not looking at these
issues from an over-arching point of view at the highest level,
why would you expect those issues to be looked at at the intermediate
and local levels?
Mr Hughes: That is what we are
trying to develop, to get local police forces to be more involved
at Level 1 and Level 2. They have the intelligence now to look
at what is happening in their region. For example, we have been
heavily involved with Lancashire—and I do not want to go
into the inquiry that is on going—and our immigration crime
teams are working with them to support what they are doing, and
we are working at an international level with them and with our
Chinese colleagues as well and beyond that it is probably best
not to go. There is a joined-up approach. What you are looking
at specifically are gangmaster operations. What we are looking
at is illegal immigration and people being exploited who are illegal
immigrants, that is when the two come into contact and it is at
that point, at a local level and based on intelligence that we
would start operations to deal with those specific types of criminality.
Q86 Patrick Hall: It is clear that some
gangmasters operate in the area that you are concerned about,
legality and exploitation. Would you not agree that the people
operating at intermediate and local level would benefit from a
signal nationally that the issue of gangmasters, where it is relevant
to what you are looking at, should be the level that you operate
at, including the briefing of ministers as the Chairman has just
said? Would you be prepared from your position of responsibility
to consider that and maybe seek to bring it about?
Mr Hughes: I am more than happy
to do that. The gangmaster issue is at a local level. What we
are not talking about are people who facilitate entry for Chinese
people from China into the UK for this purpose. If those people
exist, and they do, then we deal with them. It is maybe not the
same thing as what you are talking about.
Q87 Patrick Hall: It is a national issue.
Mr Hughes: If it is a national
issue, yes, we deal with it.
Q88 Patrick Hall: Even if they tend to
operate locally, which most things do, it is a national and an
international issue because it is part of the chain.
Mr Hughes: Yes, it is part of
the chain.
Q89 Patrick Hall: At the illegal end
of it there is a great deal of money to be made out of it and
there is a great deal of corruption that can oil the wheels as
a result of that. I am not quite clear why you seem to be saying
that at the top level the question of gangmasters does not seem
to feature.
Mr Hughes: No, I am not saying
that. We are talking about the Level 3, Level 2 and Level 1 approach.
The National Crime Squad is operating at Level 3 with those who
are facilitating those from various countries into the UK. What
we are seeking to do—and we are only a small organisation—is
to get the involvement at Level 2 and Level 1 of local agencies
to be able to deal with it at the local level.
Q90 Patrick Hall: They are clearly not
doing that well enough. You have clarified something that I may
have misunderstood, that is you do take on the issue of gangmasters
where it is relevant to your area of work, in which case why not
get all the ministers whose responsibility touches on the question
of gangmasters and their officials involved? You do not do that,
you have said that and I am asking you if you will consider doing
so.
Mr Hughes: I can consider that,
but as the Director General of the National Crime Squad I do not
call together groups of ministers. We work through the Home Office,
they are aware of the issues that we are dealing with. We deal
and report to Home Office ministers on that. We have agencies
represented on Reflex. We can move the level of involvement up
and bring in other agencies. The issue around gangmasters is not
a specific policing issue. The issue for us is those who are involved
in organised immigration crime exploiting those who are illegal
in the country or being facilitated into the country. We need
to be clear so as not to confuse the two issues. Policing gangmasters
is not something I see as an issue for the police at this time,
it is for other agencies involved.
Q91 Patrick Hall: It is an issue for
the police where those operators are in the area of illegality
and exploitation.
Mr Hughes: And that is what we
deal with.
Q92 Chairman: Do you have any role whatsoever
in looking at the number of people who are already here? You have
indicated in your earlier remarks that where there are people
movements then you are very much involved, but it seems to me
that at the heart of this matter is also the fact that there is
a pool of people in the United Kingdom who for various reasons
have gone off the official radar, they are over-stayers, there
are failed asylum seekers who have just melted away and they become
easy prey because they have no official status and no official
access to funds. Do you look at those issues as well or not?
Mr Hughes: That is exactly what
we are trying to build up in those intelligence developments I
was talking about. We are becoming more and more aware of those
groups. Nobody has a handle on how many there are or where they
are. What we are trying to build up is that local picture so we
can start to do something about it. That is why we use Reflex
funding to assist local forces to get more involved in that type
of area because, as I said before, those people are ripe for exploitation
or may get involved in criminality themselves.
Chairman: Mr Hughes and Mr Liddell, thank
you very much indeed for taking us into the difficult and perhaps
murky world of criminality. I think we will stay on this side
of the fence and you can exist on yours. I think it would be of
help to the Committee if you might just send us a short note just
defining clearly what the programme Reflex is about so that we
can be absolutely clear what those resources are available for
and to what uses they are currently being put[1].
Gentlemen, thank you very much for your contribution.
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