Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-114)
20 APRIL 2004
MR MARK
HUDSON AND
MR COLIN
HEDLEY
Q100 Joan Ruddock: What about data collection?
Mr Hudson said that there was a good story to be told. Can you
give us any further information in terms of figures and what proportion
of the sites are up to standard.
Mr Hudson: Yes there are, if I
may quickly find them, English Nature's own figures. I am sure
they will be quite capable of giving them themselves if asked
the question but I have got them here. Just bear with me while
I get the right paper out. You will not be surprised to know that
there is currently quite a range. At the moment the proportion
of SSSIs meeting favourable condition, this is up-to-date, ranges
from as low as 43% in the North East to as high as 76% in the
East of England. Both those figures are a long way from 95% clearly.
There is still five and a half years to go. As we have said and
Mr Drew through his question has pointed out, there are the Entry
Level and Higher Level Schemes to be considered which are not
yet in operation obviously, so there is some help coming on there,
but those are the ranges, between 43 and 76% are in favourable
condition at the moment, depending which region you are in. It
is also interesting to note that not surprisingly the areas of
England you would probably regard as mainly upland areas—that
is the North West, the North East, the South West and Yorkshire
and Humberside, and those are the RDA regions of course—are
the ones with the most SSSIs in them as well. While there are
plenty of SSSIs in the lowlands we are a little bit at the moment
concentrating the question on the uplands side and clearly overgrazing
and burning are two upland issues, but we must not forget there
are SSSIs in the lowlands as well.
Q101 Joan Ruddock: Just for the record
you are speaking about English Nature's figures for land owned
by your members?
Mr Hudson: No, we are speaking
about English Nature's figures straight from their web site, hot
off the web site press, if there is such a thing, which we took
down a couple of days ago.
Q102 Joan Ruddock: So does it follow
that you do not yourselves collect data and could not tell us
about your own members' performance?
Mr Hudson: No, frankly we do not
have the resources to collect the data. We will sometimes take
soundings and sometimes conduct polls but I am not claiming they
are scientifically correct so we do not collect data ourselves,
no.
Chairman: Overgrazing and undergrazing
has been mentioned several times and Paddy wants to look in a
bit more detail at the question of overgrazing.
Q103 Paddy Tipping: Mark and Colin told
us overgrazing and moorland burning were in a sense the two issues
when it came to meeting favourable condition. Returning to English
Nature's own statistics, English Nature suggests that when SSSIs
are not meeting favourable condition in 45% of cases that is because
of overgrazing. Does that feel right? Is that the kind of feedback
that you get from your members?
Mr Hedley: That is a very difficult
one to answer, which is probably why you have asked the question!
I think we acknowledge that overgrazing, possibly fostered by
the existing CAP regime, has been a major problem. Overgrazing
is a big issue in many upland SSSIs. I think broadly we would
say those figures would be largely correct. However, again some
of our members are reporting that they disagree with the assessment
that their site is being overgrazed.
Q104 Paddy Tipping: Just take us through
that, Colin, and explain that to somebody who does not go on the
hills. Tell us how you make judgments about both overgrazing and
undergrazing?
Mr Hedley: Trying to sum it up,
obviously the specialists in Defra, as you know, have a job to
do this. Basically the issue of overgrazing is for animals to
be stocked at such a high level that is it is environmentally
unsustainable for that site, so they are taking, in simple laymen's
terms, more vegetation off than is accruing in the course of their
growing season, so they are having a detrimental effect on the
semi-natural composition of that area. Obviously some land managers
will be overgrazing and might know it or might not know it and
are oblivious to the fact they are. Again a number of our members
whose views we respect very highly have stated that sheep numbers
have been high in the past; there were six million ewes at the
end of the Second World War, and that was after a period of considerable
decline, we have got seven million now. There does seem to be
scope for asking whether some sites are being overgrazed or were
some of these sites never covered in heather. We need to investigate
that a little bit more carefully because if that is the case and
the land manager's experience is right then we could be wasting
a lot of money and causing a lot of concern chasing a white elephant
in effect. A key issue here, whether or not land managers or English
Nature is right, is that there is not the positive engagement
which is critical to delivering favourable condition and continuing
that beyond 2010.
Q105 Paddy Tipping: To some extent this
is an art rather than a science, it is a matter of judgment. What
is the scientific research on overgrazing and undergrazing?
Mr Hedley: To be honest, I am
not party to that sort of detailed knowledge.
Q106 Paddy Tipping: Let me just switch
to an issue you both raise which is potentially there that of
undergrazing. We have had a mid-term review, it has got to be
implemented yet, but there are signs, you told us Mark, that this
is a potential problem for the future.
Mr Hudson: It is and I think there
is another factor we must remember in this discussion and that
is the number of people now employed in agriculture which has
declined over many years, as I am sure you are all fully aware,
and is still declining. We already have situations where there
is no longer the number of feet on the ground to manage flocks
of sheep and indeed herds of cattle in the way they would have
been managed a number of years ago. I think it is quite possible
we would see on one SSSI site a combination of both under and
overgrazing. That might sound unlikely but if stock is not being
moved at the right time that is going to lead to overgrazing in
one particular area whilst undergrazing on the land they should
be moved to. I do think that this is potentially a real problem
we are going to have because unless we can restore gross profitability
back into the uplands industries, the livestock industry in particular
(the livestock industry solely so far as farming is concerned
whereas other members have other income methods) then I think
we will continue with this problem of livestock being managed
less intensively, as it were. I am not talking about intensity
of grazing now, I am talking about intensity of time put in than
has been in the past and that could lead to undergrazing.
Q107 Paddy Tipping: That links with the
point you made in your opening statement around the need for the
new land management agency to have responsibility for social and
economic consequences.
Mr Hudson: It does link with that
indeed and I have made my point there. It does link with that,
yes.
Q108 Paddy Tipping: What other policy
instruments do you think are necessary around the grazing issue?
We are focusing on headage payments versus area payments. You
are at Defra a lot and you give a lot of advice. If you were in
charge in Defra, as I think you are, what policy measures would
you advocate?
Mr Hudson: Give me another job,
thank you! There is no doubt that within the CLA we would advocate
first of all payments an on area basis. We have said that for
a long time and that is what we are going to be getting. Once
the historical method has been washed out in eight years' time
then the payments will be entirely area based, as you are aware.
I believe, as I said earlier, that the right structure for both
the Entry Level and Higher Level Schemes that are currently being
discussed could be a very valuable and strong tool in directing
occupiers of the land towards the method of management that both
gives them the financial return they require and gives English
Nature, and all of us for that matter, the enjoyment we are going
to get from the SSSIs, which is important from a scientific point
of view. I do not see any need for any further instruments. I
think the area payments that are coming plus the targeted Entry
Level and Higher Level Schemes should be sufficient.
Q109 Chairman: Moorland burning; I think
there is likely to be a difference of opinion between many of
your members and English Nature on that issue.
Mr Hudson: Well, there may be.
You may hear more later on this afternoon on that issue from English
Nature.
Q110 Chairman: English Nature list it
as one of the main problems.
Mr Hudson: There are a number
of things. There is, as I am sure you are aware, a Burning Code
which the Moorland Association rather than ourselves are very
much involved in. I am sure you have had evidence from them. In
fact, I know you have because I have had a copy and indeed they
talk about this at quite some length. I think we would agree that
a Burning Code is a sensible thing to have. Indeed, I personally
would be happy to see that Burning Code as part of cross-compliance.
English Nature also speak of burning plans. This is obviously
more restrictive, I suspect, and these would need to be carefully
drawn up and I think they certainly should be part of the Higher
Level Scheme. I think we must remember, Chairman, that burning
has been going on in moorlands for many hundreds of years as a
method of management, I accept mainly for removing grass, but
the way it has been done in the past 150 years or so has been
done in such a way that because it is rotational in effect and
has been on the whole carefully controlled and carefully thought
through, it has in fact allowed species to develop because you
have got states of recently developed moor to two-year-old or
four- year-old up the scale and this allows the habitats and flora
and fauna to thrive in a certain area across a range of species
types, and therefore any burning plan, if I may call if that,
that English Nature might wish to discuss with occupiers has got
to take into account the experience that those occupiers have
had over many, many hundreds of years. As I said in my opening
statement, these moorlands have been managed during that period
of time really very successfully by owners who know and understand
quite a lot about the effects of burning and the dangers of overburning,
I agree, and the dangers of underburning.
Q111 Chairman: It sounds, am I right,
as if you would not disagree with the Association of National
Park Authorities who said perhaps there is a scope for a review
of burning practices but you would want to ensure that what you
have described as that historical legacy of practice contributing
to sustainability will be taken into full account in any possible
review?
Mr Hudson: Yes I would. There
is always reason for reviewing the way people do many things and
I am not against a review for that reason at all, I think it is
quite sensible to review how practices are being carried out,
but any review has got to take account of all those who have an
interest in that particular subject and, as you say, Chairman,
has got to take account, I believe, of the experience and knowledge
that moorland managers have built up over many generations.
Q112 Chairman: You do say in your written
evidence that there is evidence that greater access to open land
has led to a problem of accidental and indeed illegal fires which
have affected SSSIs. What is the extent of that and what measures
would your organisation like to see put in place to help deal
with it?
Mr Hudson: First of all, the extent.
I do not think the extent at this stage has been all that great.
Accidental fires and fires started on purpose have happened in
the past and will happen again. I think it is to be expected that
if the opening up of moorlands through the implementation of the
Countryside Rights of Way Act 2000 does increase the number of
people going on to moorlands, which I suspect it will because
that is what it is designed to do, we have to expect that if nothing
done about it—and I will come back to some suggestions in
a minute—that problems of accidental fires will probably
increase because we all know from experience whatever field of
work we work in that the more people there are in an area the
more problems occur, be it litter or vandalism, and I am not suggesting
that everyone who walks on the moorlands is a litter lout, far
from it, the vast majority of people who walk anywhere are highly
responsible and actually appreciate the countryside in which they
are walking and that is as it should be. As far as measures that
can be taken, I honestly think that this is education and it is
also to a certain extent signage which is a bit of a sore point
in implementation of the CRoW Act at the moment. We will not go
into that because it is slightly off the remit of this particular
Committee but there are problems undoubtedly of how to implement
some of these things. There is the signage, who is going to pay
for it, and education and the revised Countryside Code. All these
things are very important and I think we must look to our schools
and indeed organisations such as my own to in fact help to educate
the public—and I always slightly resist saying that, it
sounds rather too grand, but you know what I am trying to say—in
what they should and should not be doing when they are out in
the countryside and to help them enjoy it and what they can do
to extend that. So my answer is the best method of implementing
this is by creating an understanding of what people are seeing
and what they are walking over and through.
Q113 Chairman: And you are also telling
us it is not a massive problem at the moment but you are warning
us beware of the future?
Mr Hudson: I do not think it is
a massive problem at the moment simply because not a huge number
of people actually walk on the moors. To be frank, there are people
who go on the moors and are very knowledgeable and have a lot
of fun up there but it is not a great problem as yet. There certainly
have been a handful of fires started accidentally and on purpose
and the same for forest and that unfortunately is likely to continue
unless we can get the education right.
Q114 Chairman: Thank you very much, gentlemen.
Unless any of my colleagues have any further questions I thank
you for appearing before us this afternoon. If on reflection you
would like to say anything more to us in writing then we would
certainly welcome that. Thank you for your attendance.
Mr Hudson: Thank you, Chairman,
and thank you for asking us to come.
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