Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220
- 235)
WEDNESDAY 5 MAY 2004
MR ANDREW
ALSTON AND
MR JOHN
PLACE
Q220 Mr Breed: Market forces will
overcome the climatic problem?
Mr Alston: They are the big driver
in the market place.
Q221 Mr Breed: They overcome the
climatic problems?
Mr Place: Yes, because if you
take strawberries, for instance, the Spanish produce strawberries
at Easter time until about May, when it gets really hot and strawberries
are poor quality and they are over. This is where the English
come in. So the Spanish strawberries provide the basis for the
English crop, which incidentally is much more tasty, to come into
England. So we have got the balance of the two.
Q222 Mr Breed: I would dispute the
fact that the supermarkets (a) should be the driver of this and
(b) at the end of the day can be the driver of this, because the
corollary of what you are saying is that the statutory people
have their drinking water over there and you now need to ensure
a secure supply and, indeed, maybe increase it, somebody else
has to have less, and they get to a situation where out of those
priorities, whatever those areas are, a decision will have to
be made. Quite frankly, if people can be assured of their crops
which will come from somewhere else that got a lot more water,
sun and everything else, might that be the decision they ultimately
decide?
Mr Place: I think it is very important,
sir, that we offer to the consumer in the UK food which is traceable
to England, and if, as we say, the crops are better produced in
East Anglia, certain crops, because of the soil's condition, then
should we not say to the consumer, "Look, we can supply those
crops." Why should we force them to go to Africa or Poland
or wherever?
Q223 Mr Breed: Maybe they would have
to supply a smaller amount of that crop which may then secure
a premium price because it has a better taste and probably a better
colour, even if it is not particularly uniform, and the consumer
ultimately begins to understand that there is a significant difference
in the cost of the quality of the product rather than merely looking
for the cheapest thing on the shelves which might come from all
sorts of places. You are then adjusting your production to the
natural elements of producing that in this country, as opposed
to some people producing it elsewhere, rather than trying to ensure
that you maintain, I think, totally unrealistic contractual arrangements
with supermarkets?
Mr Alston: So where would the
supermarkets get their food from?
Q224 Mr Breed: The fact that green
beans are being grown in East Africa which is depriving villages
of their drinking water so they can irrigate, so that we can have
our nice small green beans grown out there, frankly, is a total
nonsense, because we are now putting loads of money into development
aid to try and give them the water which is being taken by the
supermarkets to provide the beans that we are eating!
Mr Alston: So because we are a
wealthy country we can export our problem somewhere else?
Q225 Mr Breed: No, because we have
to recognise that, in fact, the one thing you cannot buck, it
is not the market, but you are not going to buck nature in that
sense, at least not for ever and a day, and what you are asking
us to do is to say, "Of course, we cannot do that. We have
got to maintain supermarkets which provides a bit of employment
and everything else. At the end of the day we need the water better
than somebody else"—
Mr Place: I think we are saying,
sir, that there is an opportunity here for you to react. We feel
that because of climate change there will be more water in the
winter. We know in East Anglia that we can draw surplus water
off the rivers and the fens in the winter. We want to put it into
reservoirs. By putting that water into the reservoirs we can relieve
the pressure in the summer for the environment and the river flows
can increase and be very helpful there on the fens. So here is
an opportunity for you to help us to divert European funding,
hopefully, rather than UK taxpayers' money, into providing reservoirs
which will basically help the environment but also help us out
of a squeeze of losing our water in the summer which is abstracted,
as the gentleman said over here, Mr Drew, who has gone, he said
it was a dirty word.
Chairman: There is one thing we can do
to address Mr Breed's understandable concerns, and that is to
resurrect a proper regard for seasons: instead of having 52 weeks
of the year, to recognise that there are things called seasons,
and you can stretch them a bit at either end, as you have done
with the strawberry season, and find some way of growing some
of those beans under protection in East Anglia so that Mr Breed's
people can have their water and there is not a problem. So there
we are. Patrick, do you have a supplementary on this?
Q226 Patrick Hall: Yes. Could I just
see where you are coming from exactly? From the evidence there
is a theme of drawing attention to the fact that, yes, there is
climate change, which particularly includes reduced summer rainfall
and where there is rainfall it is more intense and runs off quicker,
combined with the regulatory and licensing regime. You the quote
two things as possibly together leading to very serious problems.
Be absolutely straight as you can: are you saying that the water
quality, diversity issues, in the Water Framework Directive should
be set aside, should not be followed by the parts of the country
where there is particular pressure, particularly in East Anglia.
Mr Alston: In East Anglia we have
not really got a big issue on quality of the water coming down
to the rivers. What we have got is the water is flowing through
SSIs which have particular demands. We have 28 water-related SSIs,
so they have to have a certain flow of water through them to keep
the habitats right. We are not allowed to impinge on that. If
there is climate change and the water in the rivers drops, all
of a sudden what is called Q95 of that river drops, there is no
Q95 and we have not got any licenses. So we need some mechanism
whereby we can guarantee to the supermarkets we can supply what
they want, but at the same time not being shoved off part way
through a season.
Q227 Patrick Hall: Are you saying
that if a push comes to a shove that the regulations should be
ignored or in some way should not apply—
Mr Alston: No.
Q228 Patrick Hall: —to the
East?
Mr Alston: We would like some
help—and I think the Environment Agency would like help—about
how we move this whole subject of water resources forward in Broadland—it
is being driven by these 28 water-related SSIs—and how we
protect them.
Q229 Patrick Hall: Given what we
said earlier about the market being the driver, do you seek to
influence the market and in particular the supermarkets, who are
the biggest customers, in changing the way that the supermarkets
tell us that the public want to shop?
Mr Place: I fear not, sir.
Q230 Patrick Hall: Have you sought
to do that?
Mr Place: I fear not. Our experience
is that there is tremendous competition between each of the supermarkets
for a share of their customer's business, and they will go to
get what they can best supply.
Q231 Patrick Hall: But if we are
facing serious problems then everyone involved in it has to address
various options?
Mr Alston: We have tried talking
to the processors about perhaps drought-resistant potatoes, and
they say, "They do not fry properly. They don't do this,
they don't do that. We want that product", and you suddenly
find you are growing a product that requires quite careful management
in terms of water resources.
Chairman: If you get stuck, I might inform
the old allotment. Give us a call!
Q232 Mr Liddell-Grainger: Abstraction
licenses. You have partly answered this, but what proportion of
permanent abstraction licences do you expect to be revoked?
Mr Alston: Through review of—
Q233 Mr Liddell-Grainger: Through
review, yes.
Mr Alston: This is the question
we cannot get the answer out of the Agency. We have asked the
question and we do not know. Through the charging consultation
which finished a month ago there is obviously a big number of
licenses that are under threat through that. If some of that compensation
that could be payable to those people who lose licences could
be paid in the form of 40% of the water storage reservoir, that
answers another question, but at the moment I do not believe the
consultation has in place that answer.
Q234 Mr Liddell-Grainger: You have
touched on the other point, which, of course, is the compensation.
One of the questions, I suppose, is, first of all, should it be
out of general taxation, or should it be out of a levy, or what
should it be out of, because if compensation is going to be paid
someone has to pay for it. If you are revoking licences who is
going to pay for it?
Mr Alston: We would like to see
it coming out of general taxation. We do not see why the abstractors
that are left abstracting should have to pay for the ones that
are giving up.
Mr Liddell-Grainger: Do you feel that
because you have been taking water out—to an extent what
Colin was saying, except I do not include Africa in it—you
cannot be blamed for that. Is what you are saying, that they are
taking water from Africa? Taking water generally. That is on the
record.
Chairman: I think these gentlemen are
responding to a demand from their customers. You carry on.
Q235 Mr Liddell-Grainger: Therefore,
is it fair that it should be from general taxation? Should it
not be from a levy raised against—
Mr Alston: I think if you look
at the problem from a different direction and use the compensation
from winter storage reservoirs and solve the problem of the impingement
on the SSI, or the perceived impingement, you then have not got
a problem because that farmer is showing he is not having an effect
on the SSI and has moved a proportion of all of his water to a
winter storage reservoir.
Mr Liddell-Grainger: I take the point
on board?
Chairman: Gentlemen, you have stimulated
our thinking. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with
us. As I say to all of our witnesses, if after you have reflected
upon this there is anything else you want to put into writing,
we are always very happy to have that. Can I thank you for the
written material which you have put in and for fully answering
our questions. Thank you very much for your contribution.
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