Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280-299)

7 JANUARY 2004

MR ELLIOT MORLEY MP AND MR JOHN ROBERTS

  Q280 Mr Lazarowicz: Are the Darwin Mounds a good example? As I understand it since the initial damage was discovered some years ago there has not been any follow-up work? For all we know there could be much more substantial damage to the Darwin Mounds. One of the problems is we could be faced with a situation where the damage is so extensive that by the time the survey work is carried out it could be too late. There are equal or larger areas similar to the Darwin Mounds which do not have any protection and I think the concern is that it could all be too late by the time we put the protection in place.

  Mr Morley: There are risks, I do not dispute that. All I can say to you is that where we have evidence that there is a problem we will have no hesitation in taking whatever action we can and whatever the most appropriate action is in terms of dealing with this.

  Q281 Mr Lazarowicz: One brief point on the Darwin Mounds specifically, I note you said that the long-term protection will be in place in the summer of this year, the initial protection measures were for a six month period from August last year, will they be extended to the summer of this year?

  Mr Morley: There will be no gap.

  Q282 Mr Mitchell: I did make a New Year's resolution not to be unnecessarily nasty to the European Union, it gives me a lot of scope, but we are now at 7 January.

  Mr Morley: So that is the end of that then!

  Q283 Mr Mitchell: How true is it that the competency of the European Union is holding up legislation for a Marine Act? After all the new constitution does give a unique competence to the European Union over the marine resources of the oceans and the seas, how can we legislate a Marine Act for this country and for our waters without being part of a broader European measure?

  Mr Morley: Can I make it clear that the European constitution does not change the situation in relation to competency on marine issues, it is no different. The European Union is competent on fisheries resources. It is true that if you want to have a closed area like the Darwin Mounds—

  Q284 Chairman: The marine resources of the sea are much wider than fish.

  Mr Morley: It relates to fish, it does not relate to oil and gas, I make that absolutely clear. It is basically just a statement of the situation as it is now, no change, no difference, I make that absolutely clear. Yes, you do have to seek agreement through the European Union if you want to close an area where there are fishing interests because it is an issue of EU competency, that is true, however when we went to the EU in relation to the Darwin Mounds they were very supportive, as indeed were other Member States, and we did get the support and backing that we sought. The EU is also bringing forward a thematic strategy on marine issues and that will be addressing a whole range of issues, including protected areas of fishing and marine conservation, so the EU itself is developing a strategy of which we will have input into in how that is shaped.

  Q285 Chairman: Minister, in your evidence to the Committee[20]unless there is something I have missed, there is not any reference in your commentary on how the existing mechanisms within the United Kingdom Government which co-ordinate work in this field actually operate. Perhaps you can give us a little taster as to, first of all, why there is an omission of commentary on that subject in your evidence and secondly what is going on? What is the Committee structure to co-ordinate these matters? How often does it meet? What kind of things is it currently discussing?

  Mr Morley: Any environmental issue is dealt with by the ENV Committee, which is a Cross-Government Environmental Committee. ODPM deal with things like planning consents in relation to dredging, although we have an involvement in that in relation to licences in the Food and Environmental Protection Act.

  Q286 Chairman: Who chairs this committee?

  Mr Morley: It is chaired by the Deputy Prime Minister.

  Q287 Chairman: The DPM chairs this committee, how often does it meet?

  Mr Morley: It meets whenever there is an issue to be discussed. It does tend to operate more by internal mail.

  Q288 Chairman: How many times in 2003 did it meet?

  Mr Morley: I would have to find that out for you.

  Q289 Chairman: It would be interesting to know that. Perhaps you can also tell us what the issues were that were discussed because clearly if there is an element of doubt or mystery in your mind perhaps it did not meet all that frequently?

  Mr Morley: It is a Cabinet sub-committee.

  Q290 Chairman: Are you personally content with the degree of co-operation and co-ordination that you and your officials get from other departments? It does seem that there are an awful lot of fingers in the marine pie in addition to yourselves, the DTI with their SEA activity. For example you have the Department for Transport with all of the seaborne trade activities, I am sure there are others, possibly even the Ministry of Defence will have an interest in marine matters. One could go on, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport have an interest with underwater archaeological activity, are you happy that everybody is working in complete and perfect harmony in these matters?

  Mr Morley: There is always a case for looking at the best working conditions. Even if you have some streamlining it is not unreasonable that DCMS should take an interest in underwater archaeological features. What is important is that there is cross-government communication on issues where there is common interest. I can tell you that I have had recent meetings with my ministerial colleagues in DTI on such things as offshore wind development, we regularly talk to ODPM on planning issues, we are involved with local authorities in relation to coastline management plans and in relation to coastal management for defence, we are in touch with English Nature in relation to environmental issue and the Department for Transport in relation to potential pollution issues. Although it is true there are a lot of government bodies and a lot of activity and a lot of agencies that have an interest in the sea that is always going to be the case. I think the co-ordination is good at the present time. I would not want to be complacent about this, which is why I have come back to the point that if there is a case for making it more streamline and more effective and more efficient then we should certainly look at that, and that is part of the consideration that is taking place internally at the moment in this review.

  Q291 Chairman: Would I be right in assuming you would consider yourself to be the minister in charge of policy for the marine habitat? I am trying to find out who in Government is Mr or Ms Marine?

  Mr Morley: I think there are so many facets of this. As you quite rightly pointed out there are a number of departments who have an interest in this. In relation to marine biodiversity that is certainly an area for Defra and it is an area of responsibility for me bearing in mind that we are talking about a complete United Kingdom coastline. The lead agency for the total United Kingdom marine biodiversity is JNCC, the Joint Nature Conservancy Committee, because you do have to approach this on a United Kingdom basis.

  Q292 Chairman: At the end of your evidence is a remarkably long list of activities and projects, whose responsibility is it to monitor progress and see if Government in total is moving all of these different agendas forward?

  Mr Morley: On the sustainability agenda, which is not quite the same as what you are talking about it, it is a matter for the ENV(G) Green Ministers Group in relation to having an overview on aspects of sustainability within government. That is not entirely relevant to that list, as you will appreciate, but a lot of the lines of accountability are through individual agencies and departments.

  Q293 Chairman: Have you ever had a phone call from the Deputy Prime Minister saying, "I am really concerned about marine policy", if he is the managing director of this operation does he get agitated? He is a diving man, he goes down, he knows about these things, does he pop up and say, "I am really concerned about this, come on, Mr Morley, what are we going to do about this or that?" Does he stir the pot?

  Mr Morley: He is interested in terms of the totality in relation to the marine environment and marine development. He has an interest in all of the various activities in relation to oil, gas and offshore power linking in with the various White Papers. It is worth saying it is pulled together in relation to a strategy document. All of those various activities in relation to a thematic strategy are very clearly outlined within this document here.

  Q294 Mr Lepper: The Deputy Prime Minister has not always chaired that sub-committee, has he?

  Mr Morley: To my knowledge he has.

  Q295 Mr Lepper: He has. I had the impression that in the past it was chaired by Defra?

  Mr Morley: Defra has never chaired it, it is a Cross-Government Committee.

  Q296 Mr Lepper: I understand that, it is a misunderstanding on my part then.

  Mr Morley: Are you thinking of ENV, which is chaired by the Deputy Prime Minister and there is ENV(G) which is chaired by me, there are two committees, which is a bit confusing.

  Q297 Mr Lepper: Could we just hear a bit more about ENV(G)? Is that cross-departmental?

  Mr Morley: Yes.

  Q298 Mr Lepper: It has the status of a cabinet sub-committee?

  Mr Morley: Yes. ENV(G) is the green ministers committee. Every department has a nominated minister who is designated a green minister. Their responsibility as individual ministers is to oversee the sustainable policies of the individual departments, linking in with the broader government policy on sustainability. Now, that is not quite the same as ENV because this relates to sustainability, it relates to what departments are doing, it relates to a co-ordinated approach. ENV is a broader and more strategic committee.

  Q299 Mr Lepper: Well, let's concentrate on ENV(G) then and cover perhaps some of the ground that the Chairman covered in relation to the wider strategic committee. ENV(G)'s considerations of marine environment matters, are they fairly frequent?

  Mr Morley: ENV(G) has so far concentrated primarily on sustainability within the government estate and internal government policies. It does not have the kind of mandate to develop a national marine strategy for the Government; that is not part of its function.


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