Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280-299)
7 JANUARY 2004
MR ELLIOT
MORLEY MP AND
MR JOHN
ROBERTS
Q280 Mr Lazarowicz: Are the Darwin Mounds
a good example? As I understand it since the initial damage was
discovered some years ago there has not been any follow-up work?
For all we know there could be much more substantial damage to
the Darwin Mounds. One of the problems is we could be faced with
a situation where the damage is so extensive that by the time
the survey work is carried out it could be too late. There are
equal or larger areas similar to the Darwin Mounds which do not
have any protection and I think the concern is that it could all
be too late by the time we put the protection in place.
Mr Morley: There are risks, I
do not dispute that. All I can say to you is that where we have
evidence that there is a problem we will have no hesitation in
taking whatever action we can and whatever the most appropriate
action is in terms of dealing with this.
Q281 Mr Lazarowicz: One brief point on
the Darwin Mounds specifically, I note you said that the long-term
protection will be in place in the summer of this year, the initial
protection measures were for a six month period from August last
year, will they be extended to the summer of this year?
Mr Morley: There will be no gap.
Q282 Mr Mitchell: I did make a New Year's
resolution not to be unnecessarily nasty to the European Union,
it gives me a lot of scope, but we are now at 7 January.
Mr Morley: So that is the end
of that then!
Q283 Mr Mitchell: How true is it that
the competency of the European Union is holding up legislation
for a Marine Act? After all the new constitution does give a unique
competence to the European Union over the marine resources of
the oceans and the seas, how can we legislate a Marine Act for
this country and for our waters without being part of a broader
European measure?
Mr Morley: Can I make it clear
that the European constitution does not change the situation in
relation to competency on marine issues, it is no different. The
European Union is competent on fisheries resources. It is true
that if you want to have a closed area like the Darwin Mounds—
Q284 Chairman: The marine resources of
the sea are much wider than fish.
Mr Morley: It relates to fish,
it does not relate to oil and gas, I make that absolutely clear.
It is basically just a statement of the situation as it is now,
no change, no difference, I make that absolutely clear. Yes, you
do have to seek agreement through the European Union if you want
to close an area where there are fishing interests because it
is an issue of EU competency, that is true, however when we went
to the EU in relation to the Darwin Mounds they were very supportive,
as indeed were other Member States, and we did get the support
and backing that we sought. The EU is also bringing forward a
thematic strategy on marine issues and that will be addressing
a whole range of issues, including protected areas of fishing
and marine conservation, so the EU itself is developing a strategy
of which we will have input into in how that is shaped.
Q285 Chairman: Minister, in your evidence
to the Committee[20]unless
there is something I have missed, there is not any reference in
your commentary on how the existing mechanisms within the United
Kingdom Government which co-ordinate work in this field actually
operate. Perhaps you can give us a little taster as to, first
of all, why there is an omission of commentary on that subject
in your evidence and secondly what is going on? What is the Committee
structure to co-ordinate these matters? How often does it meet?
What kind of things is it currently discussing?
Mr Morley: Any environmental issue
is dealt with by the ENV Committee, which is a Cross-Government
Environmental Committee. ODPM deal with things like planning consents
in relation to dredging, although we have an involvement in that
in relation to licences in the Food and Environmental Protection
Act.
Q286 Chairman: Who chairs this committee?
Mr Morley: It is chaired by the
Deputy Prime Minister.
Q287 Chairman: The DPM chairs this committee,
how often does it meet?
Mr Morley: It meets whenever there
is an issue to be discussed. It does tend to operate more by internal
mail.
Q288 Chairman: How many times in 2003
did it meet?
Mr Morley: I would have to find
that out for you.
Q289 Chairman: It would be interesting
to know that. Perhaps you can also tell us what the issues were
that were discussed because clearly if there is an element of
doubt or mystery in your mind perhaps it did not meet all that
frequently?
Mr Morley: It is a Cabinet sub-committee.
Q290 Chairman: Are you personally content
with the degree of co-operation and co-ordination that you and
your officials get from other departments? It does seem that there
are an awful lot of fingers in the marine pie in addition to yourselves,
the DTI with their SEA activity. For example you have the Department
for Transport with all of the seaborne trade activities, I am
sure there are others, possibly even the Ministry of Defence will
have an interest in marine matters. One could go on, the Department
for Culture, Media and Sport have an interest with underwater
archaeological activity, are you happy that everybody is working
in complete and perfect harmony in these matters?
Mr Morley: There is always a case
for looking at the best working conditions. Even if you have some
streamlining it is not unreasonable that DCMS should take an interest
in underwater archaeological features. What is important is that
there is cross-government communication on issues where there
is common interest. I can tell you that I have had recent meetings
with my ministerial colleagues in DTI on such things as offshore
wind development, we regularly talk to ODPM on planning issues,
we are involved with local authorities in relation to coastline
management plans and in relation to coastal management for defence,
we are in touch with English Nature in relation to environmental
issue and the Department for Transport in relation to potential
pollution issues. Although it is true there are a lot of government
bodies and a lot of activity and a lot of agencies that have an
interest in the sea that is always going to be the case. I think
the co-ordination is good at the present time. I would not want
to be complacent about this, which is why I have come back to
the point that if there is a case for making it more streamline
and more effective and more efficient then we should certainly
look at that, and that is part of the consideration that is taking
place internally at the moment in this review.
Q291 Chairman: Would I be right in assuming
you would consider yourself to be the minister in charge of policy
for the marine habitat? I am trying to find out who in Government
is Mr or Ms Marine?
Mr Morley: I think there are so
many facets of this. As you quite rightly pointed out there are
a number of departments who have an interest in this. In relation
to marine biodiversity that is certainly an area for Defra and
it is an area of responsibility for me bearing in mind that we
are talking about a complete United Kingdom coastline. The lead
agency for the total United Kingdom marine biodiversity is JNCC,
the Joint Nature Conservancy Committee, because you do have to
approach this on a United Kingdom basis.
Q292 Chairman: At the end of your evidence
is a remarkably long list of activities and projects, whose responsibility
is it to monitor progress and see if Government in total is moving
all of these different agendas forward?
Mr Morley: On the sustainability
agenda, which is not quite the same as what you are talking about
it, it is a matter for the ENV(G) Green Ministers Group in relation
to having an overview on aspects of sustainability within government.
That is not entirely relevant to that list, as you will appreciate,
but a lot of the lines of accountability are through individual
agencies and departments.
Q293 Chairman: Have you ever had a phone
call from the Deputy Prime Minister saying, "I am really
concerned about marine policy", if he is the managing director
of this operation does he get agitated? He is a diving man, he
goes down, he knows about these things, does he pop up and say,
"I am really concerned about this, come on, Mr Morley, what
are we going to do about this or that?" Does he stir the
pot?
Mr Morley: He is interested in
terms of the totality in relation to the marine environment and
marine development. He has an interest in all of the various activities
in relation to oil, gas and offshore power linking in with the
various White Papers. It is worth saying it is pulled together
in relation to a strategy document. All of those various activities
in relation to a thematic strategy are very clearly outlined within
this document here.
Q294 Mr Lepper: The Deputy Prime Minister
has not always chaired that sub-committee, has he?
Mr Morley: To my knowledge he
has.
Q295 Mr Lepper: He has. I had the impression
that in the past it was chaired by Defra?
Mr Morley: Defra has never chaired
it, it is a Cross-Government Committee.
Q296 Mr Lepper: I understand that, it
is a misunderstanding on my part then.
Mr Morley: Are you thinking of
ENV, which is chaired by the Deputy Prime Minister and there is
ENV(G) which is chaired by me, there are two committees, which
is a bit confusing.
Q297 Mr Lepper: Could we just hear a
bit more about ENV(G)? Is that cross-departmental?
Mr Morley: Yes.
Q298 Mr Lepper: It has the status of
a cabinet sub-committee?
Mr Morley: Yes. ENV(G) is the
green ministers committee. Every department has a nominated minister
who is designated a green minister. Their responsibility as individual
ministers is to oversee the sustainable policies of the individual
departments, linking in with the broader government policy on
sustainability. Now, that is not quite the same as ENV because
this relates to sustainability, it relates to what departments
are doing, it relates to a co-ordinated approach. ENV is a broader
and more strategic committee.
Q299 Mr Lepper: Well, let's concentrate
on ENV(G) then and cover perhaps some of the ground that the Chairman
covered in relation to the wider strategic committee. ENV(G)'s
considerations of marine environment matters, are they fairly
frequent?
Mr Morley: ENV(G) has so far concentrated
primarily on sustainability within the government estate and internal
government policies. It does not have the kind of mandate to develop
a national marine strategy for the Government; that is not part
of its function.
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