Examination of Witnesses (Questions 85-99)
10 NOVEMBER 2003
MS JOAN
EDWARDS, MR
RICHARD WHITE
AND MS
ALI ROSS
Q85 Mr Mitchell: Welcome. I apologise
for holding you up. We have had certain problems with attendance;
some of our members on the Conservative side have been elevated
to positions beyond our comprehension, and we are just in awe!
We will try and go through the areas of questioning. It is possible
there may be a division. Two of you have come from the West Country,
which is a considerable distance, and we are very grateful to
you for coming. We are taking everybody together. I assume that
Ali Ross will come in on issues that are wider than West Country
issues; there is life outside the West Country, particularly in
the North Sea and Baltic. If you want to add anything to what
has been said, please indicate to me. Do not wait to be questioned
because you might not get the question you want. Can I ask first
about the scale of the problem and how significant you think the
By-Catch problem is in terms of the population level and the threat
to stocks of cetaceans.
Ms Ross: We divided it up into
fairly discrete issues within the whole By-Catch problem. I wanted
to start with the problem of harbour porpoise By-Catch, which
occurs mostly in bottom set gill net fisheries. This is a problem
that has been identified in many areas of the world, but was identified
in this region originally in Danish fisheries in the North Sea.
They started monitoring those fisheries, and have calculated that
during the 1990s, at the peak level of By-Catch, there were over
7,000 porpoises just in the Danish gill nets alone in the North
Sea each year. That is a level that is very high—it is a
huge number of animals dying—but also a level that is calculated
to be something like 4% of the population of porpoises in the
North Sea. That level, by any international judgment of cetacean
sustainability, would be considered well above what a population
could sustain. The UK also has gill net fisheries in the North
Sea, largely targeting species like cod, but also turbot, sole
and a number of others. The UK fisheries were monitored slightly
later in the 1990s; and they calculated a level up to 800 porpoises
getting caught in the UK gill net. That is in addition to the
7,000 that were being caught by Danish nets, adding to the unsustainability
of that catch. We clearly have a major problem in the North Sea
that is fairly widespread.
Q86 Mr Mitchell: Do we know the total
populations?
Ms Ross: We have an estimate from
a survey that was done in 1994, the SCANS survey, which is Small
Cetacean Abundance Survey of the North Sea and north-east Atlantic
waters. There is a figure for harbour porpoise, which I think
is included in our evidence. That is where this calculation of
4% of the population comes from. Equally, there is an abundance
estimate for the porpoise in the Celtic Sea, the areas to the
south-west. If I move on to the south-west now, following the
concerns about the gill nets in the North Sea, a study was initiated
in the gill net fisheries off the south-west in the Celtic Sea.
There, the fishery of main concern is the hake gill net fishery,
set net fishery. A study of UK and Irish fleets involved in hake
gill net fishing put observers on boats and calculated that certainly
in the years they were looking at, it was a total catch of 2,200
porpoises each year. Again, that is a very large number, but if
you take it in the context of the population of that area, which
again came from the SCANS survey that I mentioned, we are talking
of over 6% of that population. I should mention that the judgment
of what is a sustainable catch has been assumed by a number of
international bodies of scientists, and a figure of 1% of a population
being taken is generally considered to be a matter of great concern.
Several bodies have made fine-detail calculations., but I think
we should take that 6% ie far greater that 1%, as being a major
issue of concern. To continue with the hake net fishery in the
Celtic Sea, it is important to note that the observer work, where
they established that level of By-Catch, was done in 1992-94.
The results of that were published in 1997, including the fact
that it represented over 6% of the population. It is therefore
an acute problem in terms of conservation of that porpoise population.
Research was started in 1998 to look at potential mitigation measures
in that Celtic Sea hake fishery, particularly looking at pinger
use. Despite three years of trials, eventually showing that pingers
could substantially reduce catches in—
Q87 Mr Mitchell: What is the importance
of the post-mortems on stranded cetaceans, the small cetacean
population?
Ms Ross: The strandings data is
an additional source of data. In terms of the harbour porpoise
catches, because we have quite good survey data from observers
actually on boats, that is our best estimate, the most reliable
way of establishing the scale of the problem. In fisheries where
we do not have good observer data on boats, then the strandings
data assumes a greater significance, because that is the best
evidence of the scale of the problem. Where you have a good observer
programme, with observers on boats, that will always be your most
reliable measure; although most people acknowledge that even having
observers on boats is at most only going to give a minimum estimate
of rate of capture. Even on boats, people miss some of the animals.
You will not always see all the animals that are coming up; it
will only ever be a minimum estimate.
Ms Edwards: We have talked about
porpoises and bottom set nets. There are several different fishing
issues, By-Catch issues, and obviously the south-west is the one
we are particularly aware of. In the local community, the common
dolphin issue has caused great concern. We tend to have mass strandings
of common dolphins between January and March, and it is felt that
these animals are caught in the pelagic trawl fishery for bass
and other pelagic fish. Bass fishery starts in the Bay of Biscay.
Bass spend a lot of time in estuaries during the summer, and are
very important in terms of the economics of the south-west community
because of sea angling. Come the winter months, however, bass
come together in large numbers and spawn. They go to different
areas, depending on where they originate from, but they spawn
out to sea, beyond six miles, anything from Start Point right
down to the Bay of Biscay. The problem is that probably about
ten or twelve years ago, fishermen realised that these fish were
coming together in very large numbers and provided a great fishing
opportunity. Obviously, common dolphins are also aware of this
great fishing opportunity, and that is where we are having a problem
at the moment. As pelagic boats go after the bass, we then see
strandings occurring in the south-west. This year, there were
265 common dolphins found on beaches in Devon and Cornwall. When
you come across an animal on the beach, you can see how it has
died. It has often got very obvious breakages in its bill. Its
bill is quite delicate. It is surprising because you imagine a
dolphin in the sea would be quite robust and large, but it has
a quite fragile beak, and with an awful lot of the dolphins you
come across the beak has just snapped. The view is that it is
going along, gets caught in the net, decides it needs to breathe,
goes up and gets caught in the net. It probably dies while thrashing
the net and actually drowns.
Q88 Mr Mitchell: They are then hauled
on board and chucked overboard, are they?
Ms Edwards: When the net is pulled
in, that is when they tend to be removed. We had 265 dolphins
this year. This fishery is quite well offshore, and the view is
that we are probably only seeing about 10% of the animals killed;
so we could have had 2,650 dolphins killed this winter off the
English coast. Also, there are dolphins coming offshore in the
Channel Islands and France as well, so it is a very, very large
number.
Q89 Mr Lazarowicz: How extensive
is the monitoring of the various fisheries in UK waters and the
fisheries fished by UK vessels elsewhere?
Ms Edwards: It is a very different
story for each fishery. With the bass fishery, it is unlicensed,
so there are no quotas. We know how many vessels are involved
because you tend to get that information via Defra. For example,
we were well aware that there were eight Scottish boats, four
pairs working in a fishery this year, and probably up to 30 pairs,
so 60 boats from the French, and probably 15 to 20 Danish and
Irish boats. There is no way of knowing how much fish they have
landed. Last week you were talking about the issue of By-Catch
in inshore waters. We do not know how many fishermen fish in 0-6
nautical miles. We have no idea, or Defra has no idea, how many
miles of net are placed in the 0-6 nautical miles. There is varying
information on different fisheries, but there is a lot of lack
of knowledge.
Ms Ross: In addition to the lack
of information about what fisheries are occurring where and how
much net is in the water, obviously there is also an issue about
monitoring of By-Catch. That, again, varies tremendously. The
cases we have highlighted to you are the relatively few fisheries
that have been subject to substantial monitoring. In terms of
the gill net fisheries, there has been very little monitoring
in the UK with regard to inshore fisheries, particularly in the
south-west, which is important because although they know about
the hake net fisheries, which were subject to the detailed study
I told you about, there has been very little monitoring done of
the smaller boats that operate inshore, using a great deal of
gill net around the south-west in various fisheries. Those have
not been looked at. That does not mean there is not a By-Catch
problem; it just means we do not know what the By-Catch problem
is there. Equally, in the Irish Sea and around Wales, there has
been very little monitoring, so again there could be a problem
there.
Mr White: To follow on from the
point Ali was making about not having any information, work has
been carried out in south-west Cornwall by Wildlife Trust volunteers,
which is leading us to be concerned about potential By-Catch impacts
on bottlenose dolphin populations. That is based on two sets of
evidence. First, the average group size of bottlenose dolphins
has been monitored since 1991—and the Committee will have
received the appendix with a graph—and the group size has
declined dramatically. That, combined with similar studies on
where those animals move, show that a lot of them move very close
inshore, in exactly the areas where there is a fair amount of
bottom set gill nets. There is concern that there may well be
a problem with bottom set gill nets inshore and bottlenose dolphin
populations. It has been estimated that the total bottlenose dolphin
population around the UK is about 350, so even one or two animals
will cause a significant problem. We are fairly sure that one
group moves around the south-west and we have started to get a
clearer picture of that, and we have concerns about it.
Q90 Diana Organ: You have mentioned
concerns about the sea bass fishery and the By-Catch of common
dolphin. What evidence is there about common dolphins being caught
in the pelagic trawl fisheries such as hake, tuna and horse mackerel?
What evidence do you have for that?
Ms Ross: Most fisheries that occur
in the north-east Atlantic region have not been subject to rigorous
observer monitoring to establish By-Catch levels. Several have:
one is the UK's sea bass fishery, which demonstrated very high
By-Catch rates. Another one that has been looked at is the Dutch
mackerel and horse mackerel fishery, which again occurs over winter
months, more westerly, south-west of Ireland, towards the Continental
Shelf edge. It demonstrated very high dolphin catch levels, mostly
in that case of Atlantic white-sided dolphins but also some common
dolphins. Studies were done in the early nineties, looking at
a whole range of pelagic trawl fisheries. Unfortunately, for most
of them the sample size was quite low, so it was difficult to
get a good idea of the overall scale of the problem. They did
demonstrate that dolphin catches were occurring in the French
hake fishery, the bass fishery and the Albacore tuna fishery.
They also looked at a range of other fisheries, but at a very
low level, and the researchers made a very strong point that although
they did not happen to record dolphin By-Catches in those fisheries,
this did not indicate that there is not a By-Catch problem in
the fisheries. Perhaps I can list the species that are caught
using pelagic trawl and pair trawl fisheries in the north-east
Atlantic area, that you would expect to be affecting animals in
the Biscay/Celtic Sea channel area, we are talking about Albacore
tuna, which is a summer fishery but is caught using pair trawls;
hake; herring; mackerel; horse mackerel; blue whiting; bass; pilchard;
sardine and anchovy. Most of those have not yet been monitored
for By-Catch, but they are using the same sort of gear. Most of
them, except, as I said, for tuna, are occurring over these winter
months, when we are seeing the big problem of dolphins being washed
up as By-Catch. Until all those fisheries are properly monitored,
it is reasonable to assume that quite a few of them, if not all,
may well be involved in the By-Catch problem to some extent.
Q91 Mr Mitchell: Can we trust the
French on the figures? There are more that have been thrown up
on the beaches in France, and there is a suggestion in some of
the evidence that the French have been less than forthcoming in
providing evidence.
Ms Ross: On their strandings levels,
or on the By-Catch levels?
Q92 Mr Mitchell: On both.
Ms Ross: It is hard to judge that.
They do seem to have a fairly good system of recording strandings,
and they do report annually on it. I do not think we have reason
to believe that those are inaccurate, and that they report very,
very high levels of dolphin strandings; but I would also add that
the fleets that are involved in those fisheries I mentioned are
not just French and UK boats; they also involve Dutch, Danish
and Irish boats.
Ms Edwards: In the UK, Defra does,
via the Natural History Museum, collect stranding data. It is
up to local volunteers and people who have an interest in dolphins
to collect the data. Within the Wildlife Trust we have forty or
fifty volunteers who literally go walking the beaches, particularly
during the winter months, and will record what they see. That
information is then sent through to the Natural History Museum
and then to Defra.
Q93 Mr Mitchell: We have more intensive
scrutiny here.
Ms Edwards: We do, and because
there has been a lot of press coverage in the south-west, people
are going out of their way to look for these animals.
The Committee suspended from 4.32 pm to
4.41 pm for a division in the House.
Q94 Mr Lazarowicz: Returning to the
question of the By-Catch problem in the North Sea, I was staggered
by the proportion in the Danish fisheries. Your estimate for the
UK gill net fishery was about 800 porpoises annually.
Ms Ross: That is the figure that
was established in the mid 1990s; actually, there has been a revision
downwards because most North Sea fisheries are in such a poor
state, particularly cod, that there has been a reduction in fishing
effort. Therefore, there is a revised By-Catch estimate that has
gone down since then to about 400-500 animals, because there is
less gill netting being done because there are less cod around,
in the North Sea in particular. There is so much restriction on
fishing effort at the moment that we are assuming By-Catch rates
at least temporarily are reduced there. Having said that, we are
still looking at quite a big problem overall when you consider
the Danish effort.
Q95 Mr Lazarowicz: Overall, which
countries appear to be responsible for the cetacean By-Catch problem
in the North Sea?
Ms Ross: The biggest gill netting
fleet is the Danish fleet, although others—the UK was probably
the second most important, and the others have a relatively smaller
contribution. There are other North Sea countries that participate
on a much smaller scale.
Q96 Mr Lazarowicz: Who is responsible
for monitoring of By-Catch in the North Sea, particularly as far
as the British boats are concerned?
Ms Ross: Monitoring in the UK
is Defra responsibility, and most of the monitoring around the
UK has been contracted to the Sea Mammal Research Unit, which
co-ordinates pretty well all of the By-Catch monitoring that has
been done.
Q97 Mr Mitchell: Neither of your
organisations appears to have much faith in the Government's will
and commitment to implement its commitments under the agreement
on the Baltic and North Sea. Why is that? Do you think the Government
has made genuine progress towards this 1.7% target?
Ms Ross: ASCOBANS, which is the
agreement you are talking about, has identified targets and an
overall aim to minimise, ie, reduce to zero, By-Catch within its
area; but, quite frankly, the UK and the other parties have really
done little, if anything, to actively reduce By-Catch levels.
Q98 Mr Mitchell: Why is that?
Ms Ross: Well, they have done
research and they have done some monitoring. The UK, probably
more than most other parties, has done By-Catch monitoring in
a fair number of fisheries. They have done a fair bit of research,
looking at pingers, and in the case of pelagic trawls looking
at escape mechanisms; but actually, if you look at any of the
fisheries that have been identified with serious By-Catch problems,
no active mitigation measures have been introduced. In fact, there
has been a fairly mind-numbing inertia on that front.
Ms Edwards: It is probably worth
saying that it was twelve years ago that the evidence was brought
forward on the hake fishery, where we had 6.2% By-Catch, and also
the pelagic fisheries, when we realised we were getting large
numbers. To be honest, the Fisheries Minister, Mr Morley, only
three years ago, was announcing on the Tonight programme
that there is not a problem. Government has, for many years, hidden
and said it is not a problem, or that it is not the UK that is
involved. We were very pleased to see the By-Catch Response Strategy,
and it says an awful lot of good things, but it has taken twelve
years. Now, although we have the strategy, it suggests that it
will bel another three years before most of the things it suggests
are implemented. It is a very, very slow process. At the same
time, when we think of 6.2% of porpoises being killed, that is
6.2% each year, so the population is getting smaller and smaller,
and the 6.2% is becoming more significant. There is a frustration
among the NGOs and the public in general at the fact it is so
slow. We know there is a problem, so why are we not doing something
about it?
Q99 Mr Mitchell: There is the 1.7%
target and then eventually 1%, but I do not know of any commitment
to reduce it to zero. You have put that figure.
Ms Ross: It is agreed by ASCOBANS
parties that their overall aim with regard to fisheries By-Catch
is to minimise—this is the actual text of the By-Catch resolution
agreed—ie, ultimately reduce to zero takes (mortality) of
cetaceans from fisheries By-Catch; but it is acknowledged that
that is a long-term aim and that there should be intermediate
objectives.
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